Orcollo goes to the Dark side

Would it be good we see just two colors black and white? Each one has his own story he experienced learning this game and the debates can go on forever. I've already shared my experience and some thoughts about c.f. shafts https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=494470
Will they become the only alternative in the future...well the time will tell.

In the mentioned thread I've given the example of my friend Artem Koshovyi. Those who played with him know what he's capable playing with one and the same cue from his boyhood. Won so many tournaments and played with the same cue snooker in national championship winning it too. If something works for him the best and it means for him also because of some sentimental reasons I described. Why he should take his time for those adjustments needed if this sport does not allow him to even make a living? If the memories and emotions are not there any more why to put your time and work so hard to make a penny? So like I said it is not only about technology. Pool being the mental and feel game is much more about those much more important qualities you need to succeed. Everything that keeps interest and that fire inside is also very important. Of course I believe more and more younger players will choose c.f. shaft over wooden especially once they go down in price.

As a coach who works a lot with kids I've experienced some funny questions from them. The reason they ask them....well do you think unexperienced kids have any interest in those qualities and detailes of c.f. shafts and such? They simply see the trend, looking at some players, may be trying if they can and have some fun. They just start thinking it would be cool to have one too because they may think they will look cool. So for example I was asked by the kid not so long ago. Is it possible to make a black shaft, may be painting it because of the reasons I mentioned? I smiled and tried to explain the stupidity of his idea. I was amazed how little even some fairly good players understand about cues so why to be surprised by silly questions from kids.

As I said we can go on and on but I think those who mastered the game and grow with wooden shafts if they play their best with them being successful ...I guess many of them are going to continue using what already works great. They don't care so much about those other things they are used to already but only what feels and works best for them. Those who are open, curious and interested in new things, how they are made, their pros and cons and such...they very likely give it a try and many may prefer them over the older equipment they used. The outcome at the end don't care much about what you're using or doing and what the others thinking

Grilled Cheese said:

There's no downsides to CF compared to wood, none.

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At the moment their still is. There is no customization.

Let's say you bought the 12.9 Revo and your game changes and you want a smaller shaft... your only option is buying a new shaft and not turning it down. Also, want to keep that Pred warranty? Need to get your tips done an an authorized Pred repair center.

Say you have a nice custom cue with fancy rings. You are not going to get that ring work to match at the moment. This might change in the future with blank CF shafts being made, but then there is going to be different methods to get rings attached to one of them as opposed to whatever is done with a wood blank that those doing the customizations will have to learn. Then will that void a warranty?

So yes, there are still downsides to CF.

Edit to add. I'm saying this as a Revo owner, but not user. I own one and had it converted (voiding the warranty) to fit 5/16 14 thread. The hit is decent, but not as good as the shaft that was made for my cue, but that's subjective. It drives me ****ing bonkers that the rings dont match.

Yes I do think CF is the way of the future, but it's still in its infantile stages at the moment and more things are going to need to be done for it to go that way fully.

I wonder what Tiger cues thinks of this, they have made two limited edition Dennis Orcollo cues..

Icon of Sin said:

At the moment their still is. There is no customization.

Let's say you bought the 12.9 Revo and your game changes and you want a smaller shaft... your only option is buying a new shaft and not turning it down. Also, want to keep that Pred warranty? Need to get your tips done an an authorized Pred repair center.

Say you have a nice custom cue with fancy rings. You are not going to get that ring work to match at the moment. This might change in the future with blank CF shafts being made, but then there is going to be different methods to get rings attached to one of them as opposed to whatever is done with a wood blank that those doing the customizations will have to learn. Then will that void a warranty?

So yes, there are still downsides to CF.

Edit to add. I'm saying this as a Revo owner, but not user. I own one and had it converted (voiding the warranty) to fit 5/16 14 thread. The hit is decent, but not as good as the shaft that was made for my cue, but that's subjective. It drives me ****ing bonkers that the rings dont match.

Yes I do think CF is the way of the future, but it's still in its infantile stages at the moment and more things are going to need to be done for it to go that way fully.

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Fairly sure that the OP was referring to playing with one and not cosmetics. Because rings don't match has no bearing on how a shaft plays. Maybe its just me but i've never paid any attention to how my cue looks while using it. As these things get more widespread i'm sure ringwork will be an option if one is so inclined.

newcuer said:

I am trying to objectively see the advantages of wood.

The only I have seen are the following:

• Some like the feel of wood shafts. Question here, is this because they think wood has a better feel or it is just what they are use to?
  
• Wood shafts (at least so far) are better looking.
  
• Sentimental value in playing with wood...cause that's the way the game has been played for years with...

Do people see other advantages? And do people feel these advantages outweigh the advantages that cf has?

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One other advantage I can think of is that the $ spent on a carbon fiber shaft stay in my wallet.

nothin' against the carbon players, but I've touched one, and to me it was like love at long distance

give me wood, rock'n'roll
it's got feel and it's got
soul...

-----------------------------------------------''”"----------------------------------------

evergruven said:

well-articulated post, but what about feel? soul?

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My Pancerny Titlist conversion has plenty of “soul”.

It is over 60 years old and is “straight out of Detroit.”

It starts singing, “Lets get it on” every time I pull it out of the case.

garczar said:

Fairly sure that the OP was referring to playing with one and not cosmetics. Because rings don't match has no bearing on how a shaft plays. Maybe its just me but i've never paid any attention to how my cue looks while using it. As these things get more widespread i'm sure ringwork will be an option if one is so inclined.

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Meucci has the ring work option...i ordered a carbon pro with ring work to match my gambler. Received a progress pic the other day so should be getting it in a week it looks like.

The main drawback of CF shaft, is the cost. Not many casual players are going to shell out 4-600 bucks for a shaft. In addition, a lot of people can't afford the luxury of a shaft for the cost. They are looking to spend much less for an entire cue.

A friend of mine purchased a Revo here a while back. I hit some balls for a day with it and in my view it played good. I liked the feel, and the hit a lot. Would I spend 4-600 bucks on one? No, but I'm frugal (cheap) and I just didn't, and don't, see it making my game 4-600 bucks better.

My guess, like most other things, new technology costs a lot when it first comes out. After it's been out for a while, the price comes down. When the price gets reasonable, I might decide to buy one. It would look nice with my ebony cue that is for sure!!

onepocketron said:

The main drawback of CF shaft, is the cost. Not many casual players are going to shell out 4-600 bucks for a shaft. In addition, a lot of people can't afford the luxury of a shaft for the cost. They are looking to spend much less for an entire cue.

A friend of mine purchased a Revo here a while back. I hit some balls for a day with it and in my view it played good. I liked the feel, and the hit a lot. Would I spend 4-600 bucks on one? No, but I'm frugal (cheap) and I just didn't, and don't, see it making my game 4-600 bucks better.

My guess, like most other things, new technology costs a lot when it first comes out. After it's been out for a while, the price comes down. When the price gets reasonable, I might decide to buy one. It would look nice with my ebony cue that is for sure!!

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A lot of people who say they can't afford a few hundred bucks for a shaft are some of the same people who have $1,000 cell phones and change them every time a newer model comes out.

There are others that can afford a $2,000 fancy butt, but say a $500 shaft is too much.

If people really can't afford one, that is one thing, but I see people saying that who are drinking $100 a night in bar tabs.

garczar said:

Fairly sure that the OP was referring to playing with one and not cosmetics. Because rings don't match has no bearing on how a shaft plays. Maybe its just me but i've never paid any attention to how my cue looks while using it. As these things get more widespread i'm sure ringwork will be an option if one is so inclined.

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OP didnt say that, and I gave a good reason in regards to not being able to turn one down or change the taper and just having to buy a new one.

Another reason that is playabilty depending on your shooting style and cosmetic. If the shaft is larger or smaller then your joint, it wont be flush. Some players get down low and rub their chin on the cue. You will feel that lip there if the shaft diameter is a different size at the joint then your cue.

Grilled Cheese said:

It is only a matter of time before most if not all will be using them.

There's no downsides to CF compared to wood, none.

However, there's benefits in consistency, durability, resistance to elements and all that.

Wood on the other hand has been on a steady decline. Super high quality, ultra hard, clean maple is basically non-existent. A small handful of cuemakers get their hands on pretty decent stuff. But even that is not as good as a premium shaft from the early 1980's or before.

The world has lots of maple. But environmentalism has cut off access to it.

Aside from a lack of super high quality cuts, wood warps, dings, dents, gets filthy and is slightly less consistent.


As a top player, it is of huge benefit to minimize all variables and BS in one's game. Having less things to think about is better. Having less adjustment time, practically zero adjustment time when switching to a new shaft is a huge benefit. With the CF, there's almost no reason to ever even switch shafts or cycle them out of use....These are all big wins from an equipment standpoint. Lower maintenance is also a huge factor. Pros travel a lot, which means their cues are subjected to very wide ranges of temperatures and air moisture levels. One week they are in a desert with 5% humidity, the next in a place with 90%, and another week up north in freezing weather. While no one is leaving their cue outside - there is still a moisture and temperature fluctuation across regions regardless of climate control.

Even an intermediate player who has played with the same shaft for a long enough time notices a difference between it, and even another shaft of the same make. I could feel the difference between maple shafts from the same maker. Even between the Predator 314's...those did not play identical from one shaft to the next.

With CF, you only need to make one adjustment. From wood to CF. Then you're set. There's the deflection properties, which will also be more consistent. Doesn't matter if high or low, consistency.


The only real variable is the tip hardness and feel as you break in a new tip.


The only people who scoff at CF or criticize them are those who haven't used one. Or cheapskates who let the cost taint their opinion. They are like people who tell you the food at best restaurant in town doesn't taste good or is overrated. Until you pick up the check, then it's delicious.

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For the time being the biggest disadvantage of c.f. shafts for me is most of the kids when they start to master the game can not afford one. With these shafts it is really easier to master certain shots. Unfortunately at least in my country I don't see many fathers being able to afford such a present for the kid.
When it comes to me the biggest pros of c.f. shafts are better energy transfer and they are much easier to maintain their smoothness and cleanliness. That's why I'm seriously considering to get it one day.

sjm said:

Wow, thanks for such an informative post.

Could you possibly elaborate on how environmentalism has figured here?

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Go talk to builders who have been doing it for decades . They will tell you the same thing. The young trees that are being used now just don’t give you the quality of aged wood. So I can see that would definitely effect cue makers also.

carbon fiber can warp if put in a stressful position or if the molding process somehow gets screwed up, it can also get dinged but is harder to dent and ding than wood, it does have a different hit that some will never like, everything has its pluses and minuses

Meh.

I don't care, really. I think at his Level, he could play With a broom. On the other hand, every other 2 ball Charlie around here has a Revo. Never have the rails been pounded more expensively and stylishly. What a crock. Did he have a Revo before? No. Did he play well, you bet. If he has a Revo now, how does that explain how well he played before? It doesn't. He played well without, as well as With. Save your money and get some lessons instead.

I don't mind new Technology, I'm usually an early adopter, but this whole "copy what the pros use" approach has gotten ridiculous and out of hand. The pros practise a lot and use good technique, but People aren't lining up to copy that, because it takes work. But if they use an extender that makes their cue 70 inches long or some ridiculously overpriced shaft, People are lining up around the Block. Of course People can do whatever they want, but please, lets keep expectations in check. You'll be buying an expensive fashion accessory, With a mostly theoretical performance improvement. That is it. 2 hours Worth of lessons will probably help Your game 100 times more than such a shaft ever can.