A-joint problems

pip9ball · Dec 14, 2019

Hello All -

I'm attempting to build my first cue and I'm just learning as I go. I'm at the stage where I want to join the forearm and handle together and I ran into my first big problem.

The forearm is just gaboon ebony cored onto a maple core. I have some simple ring work (shown in photos) that if like to go at this A joint.

For the foream, I created a .750" diameter tennon by roughly .750" long. I center drilled, bored, and tapped for 3/8x10 pin.

For the handle, I bored the pocket for the tenon and tapped for the pin.

However when joining things up dry, I noticed quite a bit of run-out :-(

I made sure to not over tightening things and triple checked the rings for sqaureness. After reading tons of other threads, I may have discovered where I went wrong.

After glueing on the core I took several passes on the ebony between centers using the butt taper bar, however when I sized the tennon for .750, I did this by chucking up on the slightly tapered ebony. I also faced things at this time.

I think the correct approach would be to create the tennon to size and face while still between centers, however I'm stumped on how to face if the center is in the way? Am I missing something here?

Thanks,

Phil

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JoeyInCali · Dec 14, 2019

Take a straight pass at the bottom 3 inches of your forearm.
Make that portion straight and take out the taper.
That way, it's much easier to chuck up.
Do the same for the handle's top 2 to 3 inches.
You can do that while they are still oversized.
Face the bottom ring after gluing.
Make it .005 thicker then face it after gluing.
Make sure your bits and drills are super sharp.
Your handle's face looks rough.
I suggest tcgx insert for facing.

tsp&b · Dec 14, 2019

The taper on the forearm and the handle should not be a problem when facing them... IF the other end is properly secured and held exactly centered.

pip9ball · Dec 14, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
Take a straight pass at the bottom 3 inches of your forearm.
Make that portion straight and take out the taper.
That way, it's much easier to chuck up.
Do the same for the handle's top 2 to 3 inches.
You can do that while they are still oversized.
Face the bottom ring after gluing.
Make it .005 thicker then face it after gluing.
Make sure your bits and drills are super sharp.
Your handle's face looks rough.
I suggest tcgx insert for facing.

Aren't TGCX inserts used for boring applications? Can they also be used for facing? I'll look into them however I think I'll need to purchase another tool holder as well.

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JoeyInCali · Dec 14, 2019

pip9ball said:
Aren't TGCX inserts used for boring applications? Can they also be used for facing? I'll look into them however I think I'll need to purchase another tool holder as well.

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They are used for turning. The .2 ones are a little rounder at the tip. They face great from inside going out.

pip9ball · Dec 14, 2019

JoeyInCali said:
They are used for turning. The .2 ones are a little rounder at the tip. They face great from inside going out.

Awesome thanks! Do you have a link to the ones you buy? Any special tool holder?

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JoeyInCali · Dec 14, 2019

pip9ball said:
Awesome thanks! Do you have a link to the ones you buy? Any special tool holder?

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https://www.shars.com/tcgx-32-52-lh-yd101-1-carbide-insert

Ssonerai · Dec 14, 2019

What lathe?
If you can work through the headstock, put a chuck on both ends.
For critical work, indicate both ends & adjust the 4jaw, or adjust tru to re-center both ends..

Anytime work is re-chucked it's going to lose concentricity and probably axial alignment, certainly if using a 3 jaw chuck without adjust-tru feature.

FWIW - I just picked a couple photos out of the file - upper is using TS to clamp butt collar. Lower is spinning superglue to saturate joint while it sets, before re-tapping to clean up finish profile.
The chuck on the back end is a cheap import i modified to adjust-true feature and used wood top jaws for non-mar. I was tired of using my good metal chucks on the cue lathe. The adjust-true works very well, but the import scroll does not repeat. I went back to using a 4 jaw, and American KMC adjustru.

pip9ball · Dec 15, 2019

It's a deluxe cuesmith

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Ssonerai · Dec 15, 2019

I'm not familiar with cue lathes.
But my impression is some have big bores, and you can put chucks on both ends?

Also, if not, a steady rest forces the end in the rest to be concentric, so long as the surface is round and the rest is adjusted with minimal play. You should still indicate the end in the chuck or collet and adjust that end until it is turning true, as well.

As mentioned, back to the end in the steady, all good practice observed, it will be forced to run concentric. However, if the steady is mis-aligned, it may cut a very slight taper. That's up to your control setting it up, though.

BTW, Joey knows cues, I'm coming at this from machine shop practice for alignment.

smt

JoeyInCali · Dec 15, 2019

Ssonerai said:
What lathe?
If you can work through the headstock, put a chuck on both ends.
For critical work, indicate both ends & adjust the 4jaw, or adjust tru to re-center both ends..

Anytime work is re-chucked it's going to lose concentricity and probably axial alignment, certainly if using a 3 jaw chuck without adjust-tru feature.

FWIW - I just picked a couple photos out of the file - upper is using TS to clamp butt collar. Lower is spinning superglue to saturate joint while it sets, before re-tapping to clean up finish profile.
The chuck on the back end is a cheap import i modified to adjust-true feature and used wood top jaws for non-mar. I was tired of using my good metal chucks on the cue lathe. The adjust-true works very well, but the import scroll does not repeat. I went back to using a 4 jaw, and American KMC adjustru.

That is a pretty setup.

Ssonerai · Dec 15, 2019

Joey - from you, that means a lot to me. Thanks!

It's a rig built up over the years, adapting Hardinge parts (all eras) as necessary for doing weird, long, woodwork. including porch posts. For cues, it is easy to use and keeps finish & sanding grit off of the better metal lathes. The motor is 1200 rpm and on a VFD so it can be dialed down to a very few rpm.

Photos can be deceptive.
In first, it looks like no joint collar, but it is phenolic.
In blow-up to show phenolic, it looks like joint is not flush (it is).:sorry:

smt

QMAKER · Dec 16, 2019

A joint troubles

First suggestion just use a full length core and ALL your a joint problems go away.
Next: Install your pin first and then turn your butt around the pin using the pin as a center to insure perfect concentricity. Make sure all your joints and rings are dead square using SHARP tools. Lap rings flat and mike to insure square and remove all burrs. Make and fit your joinery while the stock is still round.
Double check to insure your pin is straight and true.

pip9ball · Dec 16, 2019

QMAKER said:
First suggestion just use a full length core and ALL your a joint problems go away.
Next: Install your pin first and then turn your butt around the pin using the pin as a center to insure perfect concentricity. Make sure all your joints and rings are dead square using SHARP tools. Lap rings flat and mike to insure square and remove all burrs. Make and fit your joinery while the stock is still round.
Double check to insure your pin is straight and true.

Thanks for the suggestions! I had never thought of making a once piece core. I'm extremely new to this but I'll give it a shot

Regards,

Phil

Michael Webb · Dec 17, 2019

pip9ball said:
Hello All -

I'm attempting to build my first cue and I'm just learning as I go. I'm at the stage where I want to join the forearm and handle together and I ran into my first big problem.

The forearm is just gaboon ebony cored onto a maple core. I have some simple ring work (shown in photos) that if like to go at this A joint.

For the foream, I created a .750" diameter tennon by roughly .750" long. I center drilled, bored, and tapped for 3/8x10 pin.

For the handle, I bored the pocket for the tenon and tapped for the pin.

However when joining things up dry, I noticed quite a bit of run-out :-(

I made sure to not over tightening things and triple checked the rings for sqaureness. After reading tons of other threads, I may have discovered where I went wrong.

After glueing on the core I took several passes on the ebony between centers using the butt taper bar, however when I sized the tennon for .750, I did this by chucking up on the slightly tapered ebony. I also faced things at this time.

I think the correct approach would be to create the tennon to size and face while still between centers, however I'm stumped on how to face if the center is in the way? Am I missing something here?

Thanks,

Phil

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

Everything between centers is a great approach. Your female parts have two centers. I think your overlooking the center at the bottom of your cavity as an option. Next, I don't see any glue relief channel's. That could be a serious problem when you start gluing.

pip9ball · Dec 17, 2019

Michael Webb said:
Everything between centers is a great approach. Your female parts have two centers. I think your overlooking the center at the bottom of your cavity as an option. Next, I don't see any glue relief channel's. That could be a serious problem when you start gluing.

I do plan on adding some relief channels before glueing. Do you think it makes sense to fill the cavity and start over with the two centers?

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Michael Webb · Dec 18, 2019

pip9ball said:
I do plan on adding some relief channels before glueing. Do you think it makes sense to fill the cavity and start over with the two centers?

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

I wouldn't do that. If you indicated the forearm before you machined your holes, you should be ok to add a concave to the bottom hole if you didn't already so a center will sit in it. It's strictly for facing. If your facing using the standard R/L cutter and it doesn't fit to reach the inside center, add to your tooling by using a L/R cutter and use a 1/2 inchx4 inch long dead center on your chuck side.

Or,
Make a non glued plug to go inside the larger hole so you can face it without hitting your live center.

pip9ball · Dec 18, 2019

Michael Webb said:
I wouldn't do that. If you indicated the forearm before you machined your holes, you should be ok to add a concave to the bottom hole if you didn't already so a center will sit in it. It's strictly for facing. If your facing using the standard R/L cutter and it doesn't fit to reach the inside center, add to your tooling by using a L/R cutter and use a 1/2 inchx4 inch long dead center on your chuck side.

View attachment 537076

Or,
Make a non glued plug to go inside the larger hole so you can face it without hitting your live center.

Thanks Mr. Webb, I'll certainly give that a shot.

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WilleeCue · Dec 19, 2019

I wonder if Chris Hightower's book addresses the making of "A" joints in any detail?
Actually Im be a bit of a smart a$$ because of course it does.

Just like pool you read, study and practice to increase your skill and knowledge.
No matter how many years you are making cues you can always learn a quicker or better way to do a task.
No one is perfect.

pip9ball · Dec 19, 2019

WilleeCue said:
I wonder if Chris Hightower's book addresses the making of "A" joints in any detail?
Actually Im be a bit of a smart a$$ because of course it does.

Just like pool you read, study and practice to increase your skill and knowledge.
No matter how many years you are making cues you can always learn a quicker or better way to do a task.
No one is perfect.

I've actually read his book front to back several times and infact followed his process. However, as with most things in life things don't always work out perfectly and thus the reason for my question.

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A-joint problems

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