league rules concerning forfeits.

pulzcul

"Chasinrainbows"
Silver Member
Last night of a local 8 ball money league. My team shows ready to play. The other team does not. Using a 10 point for winning a match format. We are then told that according to the rules a forfeit gets 7 pts. Now I admit I was not aware of the rules, but I ( as captain of the team) was, shall I say not overjoyed to hear we were getting 112 pts.( 4 person team) out of 160 for not having an opponent. So needless to say a change will be made and I would like to know how other league rules handle forfeits.
 

IbeAnEngineer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In the league that I play in that uses a points system (10 for a win and a point for every ball you make if you lose). You get your average for a forfeit.
 

Jerry R

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The league I play in is the same way and I disagree with it also.
I think a forfeit should give max points, not just the average.

I realize it's an unlikely scenario, but it sure will suck if at the end of the year you lose a position or something by just a few points. Or if you do round wins lose a round by a few points.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
League politics. THE reason i quit and have never looked back. I saw enough arguments(and a few fights) over petty crap like this to last me two life-times. Post the damn rules where EVERY person can see them on week one. If they choose not to, tough s^*t.
 

Rickhem

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last night of a local 8 ball money league. My team shows ready to play. The other team does not. Using a 10 point for winning a match format. We are then told that according to the rules a forfeit gets 7 pts. Now I admit I was not aware of the rules, but I ( as captain of the team) was, shall I say not overjoyed to hear we were getting 112 pts.( 4 person team) out of 160 for not having an opponent. So needless to say a change will be made and I would like to know how other league rules handle forfeits.

Do you think there was confusion, or did they not show for a particular reason?
Since it is a money league, rules would necessarily be held a bit more strict, but for the leagues that I've played in, we would probably try to make that match up if at all possible. During the regular season, it's about playing pool and we accommodate whatever we can. Playoffs are another story, and a forfeit is free points, so we'll take them. That said, it seems weird that you get your team's average for points. That makes a forfeit a different point value for every team in the league.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Last night of a local 8 ball money league. My team shows ready to play. The other team does not. Using a 10 point for winning a match format. We are then told that according to the rules a forfeit gets 7 pts. Now I admit I was not aware of the rules, but I ( as captain of the team) was, shall I say not overjoyed to hear we were getting 112 pts.( 4 person team) out of 160 for not having an opponent. So needless to say a change will be made and I would like to know how other league rules handle forfeits.

I'm new to all of this, but very curious, and want to learn more; so please excuse my ignorance.

Looking at this I first thought "what are the rules" when you said "according to the rules." It would have been good to know them at the outset. (Also, when you say "match," you mean "game," correct?

After researching this a bit I have the strong impression that this is a pretty standard way of dealing with forfeits in 8 ball leagues. It's not strictly a win/lose thing like 9 ball, it's a point system.

League rules strive for fairness. If the opposing team can't play and forfeits, the league doesn't want to penalize your team, but then again, doesn't want to penalize the teams that actually played by awarding you the maximum number of points, as if you had played and won every game. Your average indicates the number of games you would likely have one, to a first order approximation, and here it seems you average 70% of your games played. So, you are awarded 7 points per game forfeited, which is 112. This doesn't harm your team to any large degree, and it doesn't harm the other teams that played, regarding relative standing. One can assume that a standard of fairness in forfeits must address all parties - including other teams in the league.

(One can imagine a slightly more complex method where you would be awarded a number of points based on your average and the forfeiting team's average, a closer approximation of what the likely outcome would be. But there's a chance this could be less than 112 points, depending on how good the forfeiting team is when they play.)

You then say "so needless to say a change will be made." How is that? Do you think you have the influence and the right to change the point allotment for forfeits, mid-season? Do you think the other teams and league officials will do this for you? Do you propose going back to the beginning of the season and re-calculating all the forfeits and adjusting the points totals? I don't think that will happen.

From my brief search of the web I've found many, i not most 8 ball leagues do this exactly as yours does.

You can't blame anyone if you started the season not knowing the rules, especially as the team captain!
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The league I play in is the same way and I disagree with it also.
I think a forfeit should give max points, not just the average.

I realize it's an unlikely scenario, but it sure will suck if at the end of the year you lose a position or something by just a few points. Or if you do round wins lose a round by a few points.

It would also suck if your team got aced out by a team that had a forfeit and won because they got full points while your team had to play and dropped a few points. The forfeit should not punish you but neither should it benefit you.
 

Jerry R

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It would also suck if your team got aced out by a team that had a forfeit and won because they got full points while your team had to play and dropped a few points. The forfeit should not punish you but neither should it benefit you.

Equally true.
 

nicksaint26

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It would also suck if your team got aced out by a team that had a forfeit and won because they got full points while your team had to play and dropped a few points. The forfeit should not punish you but neither should it benefit you.

Exactly or teams that have buddies on another team and are already out of the playoffs so they forfeit max points to a team of friends in contention!
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Exactly or teams that have buddies on another team and are already out of the playoffs so they forfeit max points to a team of friends in contention!

nicksaint26, I wish I could unsee your avatar. :thumbup:

In the APA area I played in last session (and many sessions before), over the years there WERE teams that didn't show up for their matches when their teams were out of the running and a team that played out of the same hall/bar needed points to make playoffs. This usually happened in the last two or three weeks of the league.

I have heard many, many admissions about APA handicapped leagues concerning a lot of unethical things straight from the mouths of those who did them, and not showing up to help another team was one of them that I heard.

Maniac
 

nicksaint26

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
nicksaint26, I wish I could unsee your avatar. :thumbup:

In the APA area I played in last session (and many sessions before), over the years there WERE teams that didn't show up for their matches when their teams were out of the running and a team that played out of the same hall/bar needed points to make playoffs. This usually happened in the last two or three weeks of the league.

I have heard many, many admissions about APA handicapped leagues concerning a lot of unethical things straight from the mouths of those who did them, and not showing up to help another team was one of them that I heard.

Maniac

When I lived back East I used to see it all the time in APA, especially teams from the same bar. The way the schedule worked was they would end up playing their home bar the first and last week of the session and completely dump and or forfeit the last week depending on which team needed the points. Hated that, you would be in first all session then get passed the last week when the team gets 110 points or whatever lol.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dealing with forfeits in a fair way is tricky. You don't want to provide either side an incentive to forfeit or to demand a forfeit (if the opponent is two minutes late, for example). You pick a value high enough that a team wouldn't be disappointed in winning that total through honest play, but low enough that it's not unrealistic to actually earn by playing.

Concerning buddies conspiring, that will happen no matter what the rules are. Even if you give zero points for forfeits, they will just conspire so the 'right' team wins all of the games. The only defense against that practice is heavy penalties and conscientious reporting by everyone in the league, and even then you don't catch it all the time.
 

pulzcul

"Chasinrainbows"
Silver Member
Thanks for the replies folks. What I meant about changing things was this. It was the last week of the session and with another starting tonite. Captains meeting and votes will ensue. We ended up using an average instead of the rules that said 7 pts for a forfeit and thats probably what the rule will be now.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the replies folks. What I meant about changing things was this. It was the last week of the session and with another starting tonite. Captains meeting and votes will ensue. We ended up using an average instead of the rules that said 7 pts for a forfeit and thats probably what the rule will be now.

Thanks for following up!

When I read your original post I thought you were saying you got your average, which would make sense. Now that it's being changed to average, I think that's a good change.
 
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