Diamond Pro-Am Cushion Height?

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Just so you know Joey, Mark and i talk almost everyday, and discuss every aspect of the tables, and Mark and i share the same secrets about rail playabilitys....how do you think we arrived at the measurements we use today....by keeping secrets from each other? It's not about me teaching Mark, or Mark teaching me....it's always about one of use saying, what if we do this, or that...what would that effect, or change, or better! That's what YOU just absolutely refuse to understand, which is why like a little kid....keep trying to throw your BS into a comment any chance you get!

WTF are you whining about ?
What BS did I throw?
You whine like a little girl.

A cue maker and a heck of a player told me Mark's table banks like no other table.
And that Johnny Archer told him Johnny swore the Gold Crown Mark did for him is the best playing table he's ever played.

I couldn't care less how you got to your measurement .
 

Tomster

Registered
Because not all cloth is the same thickness, and spring loaded staplers don't always set the head of the staples flat to the dado so, there's a cloth relief cut into the bottom of the rail where the cmoth staples to the bottom of the rail. Without that relief, the cushion nose height would change from cloth to cloth.

Got it, thanks for explaining that - always wondered about that gap...

:)
 

tjohnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

Very interesting diagrams, thanks for posting these. I notice that the contact point in each case is a little lower than the nose height, and the difference between them is close in each case but not exactly the same. Can you explain why they are different (maybe just rounding error?) and how the difference between the nose height and the contact point is calculated/estimated? Many thanks for these great diagrams!
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
Very interesting diagrams, thanks for posting these. I notice that the contact point in each case is a little lower than the nose height, and the difference between them is close in each case but not exactly the same. Can you explain why they are different (maybe just rounding error?) and how the difference between the nose height and the contact point is calculated/estimated? Many thanks for these great diagrams!

The nose height is the measurement from the slate to the centerline of the cushion nose radius. Since the nose height is above the centerline of the ball, the contact point (or tangent) is below the nose radius.

The reason that the height of the contact point changes is because the angle of the subrail has changed. Maybe I'll draw a greatly exaggerated model, or an enlarged depiction, to better show how this works.

I should also mention, there is no calculation or estimation in these diagrams.. I use Autodesk Inventor design software. These are actual 3d models, where the dimensions are taken directly from the model.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet had a chance to model the Artemis cushion. Maybe tomorrow..
 
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tjohnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The nose height is the measurement from the slate to the centerline of the cushion nose radius. Since the nose height is above the centerline of the ball, the contact point (or tangent) is below the nose radius.

The reason that the height of the contact point changes is because the angle of the subrail has changed. Maybe I'll draw a greatly exaggerated model, or an enlarged depiction, to better show how this works.

I should also mention, there is no calculation or estimation in these diagrams.. I use Autodesk Inventor design software. These are actual 3d models, where the dimensions are taken directly from the model.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet had a chance to model the Artemis cushion. Maybe tomorrow..

Thanks for the explanation, makes sense!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The nose height is the measurement from the slate to the centerline of the cushion nose radius. Since the nose height is above the centerline of the ball, the contact point (or tangent) is below the nose radius.

The reason that the height of the contact point changes is because the angle of the subrail has changed. Maybe I'll draw a greatly exaggerated model, or an enlarged depiction, to better show how this works.

I should also mention, there is no calculation or estimation in these diagrams.. I use Autodesk Inventor design software. These are actual 3d models, where the dimensions are taken directly from the model.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet had a chance to model the Artemis cushion. Maybe tomorrow..

If the sub rail thickness changes, what does that do to the cushion nose height being 63 1/2% +/- 1% ? of the ball? Does that %%% still apply?
 

tjohnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the sub rail thickness changes, what does that do to the cushion nose height being 63 1/2% +/- 1% ? of the ball? Does that %%% still apply?

I like geometry so forgive me for chiming in! If the subrail thickness increases or decreases, that would raise or lower the nose height by the same amount. To bring the nose height back to the original height, you would need to change the angle.

A related question: If you change the angle by a degree or two it's clear that it will change the nose height. It seems it would also change the distance (ever so slightly) from the tip of the nose to the feather strip. Is this change so small that it's a non-issue? I'm thinking yes.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I like geometry so forgive me for chiming in! If the subrail thickness increases or decreases, that would raise or lower the nose height by the same amount. To bring the nose height back to the original height, you would need to change the angle.

A related question: If you change the angle by a degree or two it's clear that it will change the nose height. It seems it would also change the distance (ever so slightly) from the tip of the nose to the feather strip. Is this change so small that it's a non-issue? I'm thinking yes.

So, what would you say the nose height should be for a sub -rail that is 1 5/8 thick, or even 1 1]/2 thick
 

tjohnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, what would you say the nose height should be for a sub -rail that is 1 5/8 thick, or even 1 1]/2 thick

I'll venture a guess: nose height should be the same (within a narrow range) regardless of subrail thickness. To achieve this constant nose height, subrail angles will need to be adjusted, depending on subrail thickness. The thinner the subrail, the greater the subrail angle needs to be to keep the nose height constant.

Am I close?

(And remember, I'm just answering as an interested bystander who likes geometry).
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I'll venture a guess: nose height should be the same (within a narrow range) regardless of subrail thickness. To achieve this constant nose height, subrail angles will need to be adjusted, depending on subrail thickness. The thinner the subrail, the greater the subrail angle needs to be to keep the nose height constant.

Am I close?

(And remember, I'm just answering as an interested bystander who likes geometry).

This is where geometry and physics clash. By being stuck on one nose height, people don't understand the by doing so on a thinner sub-rail, you are in fact rotating the body of the cushion upward to meet that nose height measurement, and in doing so, you're also rotating the body of the cushion out of maximum energy alignment behind the nose of the cushion. A 1 7/16" nose height on a sub-rail 1 1/2" thick causes the nose of the cushion to lift up and pinch the balls when they come into contact with the cushions instead of rebounding the balls off, angle in-angle out don't work anymore. What you end up with is dead acting cushions because all rebound energy is lost when the nose of the cushions lift up and the ball goes under the nose.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
Everyone, including ALL table manufactures fail to understand its as much, if not more important that the body of the cushion be positioned correctly BEHIND the nose of the cushion in order to obtain the maximum playability of any cushions being mounted on the rails, be it pool tables, billiard tables, or snooker tables. Everyone is so caught up with the nose height of the cushions that they fail to understand there's a damn CUSHION behind that nose height and it TO needs to be aligned correctly as well. Then, and only then can you use that full 1/16" of an inch nose height playability to build a pool table to play a certain way, depending on what's being requested. MARK understands that, and so do I, but how many other so called pool table mechanics do? When i rebuilt Stan Shuffet's Diamond 9 ft Pro, i rebuilt it and set the cushions to play 9 ball, which is what i thought he wanted. Come to find out he really played 14.1 more and just couldn't get the hihj runs he was hoping to get, so he asked me what, if anything could i do to make the table play even better. Well, i told him if I'd have known he played 14.1 mostly I'd have designed his rails for that game instesd of 9 ball, so as much as everyone loved how his table played already, i went back to his house ad redesigned the rails for 14.1....and blew his mind with the difference in the change of play.....now you can all figure out how i did that!!!
 

tjohnson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is where geometry and physics clash. By being stuck on one nose height, people don't understand the by doing so on a thinner sub-rail, you are in fact rotating the body of the cushion upward to meet that nose height measurement, and in doing so, you're also rotating the body of the cushion out of maximum energy alignment behind the nose of the cushion. A 1 7/16" nose height on a sub-rail 1 1/2" thick causes the nose of the cushion to lift up and pinch the balls when they come into contact with the cushions instead of rebounding the balls off, angle in-angle out don't work anymore. What you end up with is dead acting cushions because all rebound energy is lost when the nose of the cushions lift up and the ball goes under the nose.


Excellent! That makes perfect sense.
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
Glen, I am grateful for the things that I have learned from you. However, you are an asshole. To be fair: in no way am I saying that I dislike you.. I may not care for the way that you handle yourself on this forum, but to each his own.

You fail to understand that there are other people in this world who are capable of thinking. There may even be some of us who have gone to school for mechanical engineering. There may even be some of us who have made a career out of mechanical design, and work on pool tables as a hobby/side-gig.

We are talking about pool tables: wood, rubber, and stone.. We are not sending them to the moon. The design is not nearly as complicated as you would like to believe. Sure, there are aspects of a table that make them play different. Of course, not everyone understands what those aspects may be, or the slight difference that affect play.

The beauty of pool tables: there is no perfect! There are no standards. Some tables definitely play better than others, and many people may not understand why. The fact that you modified the nose height on Stan Shuffett's table, simply for him to play a different game, is wrong. In a perfect world, all tables would play exactly the same, regardless of size, manufacturer, or the game being played on it.

To say that one table plays better than another is very subjective. There is no way to quantify it. Sure, you may notice a difference, but it's all feel, and it is all a matter of perspective. People's opinions vary greatly. What one person feels is a great playing table, another person may not care for. Case in point: For as many people that love the way a Diamond table plays, I would guess that there are just as many people who dislike it. They are a wonderful product, are very well built, and look very nice. However, they bank short and springy, and many people don't like that.

You perform great work. There is no disputing that. Though, to insist that you and Mark are the only ones capable of performing great work is quite foolish. You act as though you are artists, creating fine masterpieces that no one else could recreate or understand. When considering the finished product, that may be completely true. Many of the tables have been fine works of art.

However, when considering rail design, there should be no artistry. Rail design is science. You modify the variables to achieve a specific outcome. Understanding those variables is the key. To be clear, this is where you feel that you excel beyond the rest of the people in this business. You hold the belief that no one else could ever understand these variables in the way that you do. Now, maybe there are some in this business who don't consider all of the variables, or maybe they don't put the same emphasis on the variables, or maybe they just don't care.. Though, you cannot lump everyone together, and insist that no one else could ever figure these things out.

I understand your position. You have used this forum as a platform to establish dominance. I get it. The vast majority of business that you get, has been as a result of this forum. You have to do whatever it takes, to ensure that everyone who visits this forum will view you as the most knowledgeable pool table guru on the face of the earth. That's cool.. Whatever you have to do to make it through life.. I, on the other hand, have chosen to take a different approach. I treat everyone with respect, and understand that I can learn something from everyone.

All differences aside, I wish you the best, buddy.

Happy holidays!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
You fail to understand that there are other people in this world who are capable of thinking. There may even be some of us who have gone to school for mechanical engineering. There may even be some of us who have made a career out of mechanical design, and work on pool tables as a hobby/side-gig.
That right there is where we differ. You have a mechanical engineering education, just like all those engineers that work for Brunswick and every other table manufactuer. You design a rail on a cad program, determine the angles needed to get the nose height you want, then go with it. You then sit back and complain about Diamond table banking short and playing springy....yet you really have no idea as to why, only what you've heard. You fail to realize there are other things at work that change the way a table plays, and you fail to realize there is more to a pool table and how it plays, just because the balls bounce off the rails, that don't mean it's right. You've made some statements that you can't back up, such as the nose height being different depending on which way ylu mount the Artemis cushions, like you KNOW what you're talking about, when in fact you don't, and have failed to accept the fact that you were wrong, and admit that as so, yet I'm the asshole? I point blank asked you what should the nose height be for cushions mounted on sub-rails 1 1/2" thick and you skated all around answering my question....why is that? Here's another question for you seeings how you want to play like you know as much as you do, ask your cad program to explain to you the difference in how the Artemis cushions play with the flat side up, and then mounted with the hump side up. Let's see if you can get that right!!!
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
The fact that you modified the nose height on Stan Shuffett's table, simply for him to play a different game, is wrong. In a perfect world, all tables would play exactly the same, regardless of size, manufacturer, or the game being played on it.

!

AGREED!
WTF? Different cushion setting for straight pool and 9-ball?
WTH? What's next ? Different setting for one-pocket ?

Complaining about engineering ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SURO7-dtBYo
Complain there and tell Brunswick not to use Reometer.
Or don't do the rebound test.
https://youtu.be/SURO7-dtBYo?t=453
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
AGREED!
WTF? Different cushion setting for straight pool and 9-ball?
WTH? What's next ? Different setting for one-pocket ?

Complaining about engineering ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SURO7-dtBYo
Complain there and tell Brunswick not to use Reometer.
Or don't do the rebound test.
https://youtu.be/SURO7-dtBYo?t=453

What..... different pockets for playing ONE pocket vs 14.1? Why not 5" corner pockets and 5 1/2" side pockets on ALL pool tables, why does there need to be different size pockets????
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
What..... different pockets for playing ONE pocket vs 14.1? Why not 5" corner pockets and 5 1/2" side pockets on ALL pool tables, why does there need to be different size pockets????

You tell that to Diamond who insists on 4.5" 141*.
And all the sheep mechs who think 4.5" 141* was spec'd by Jesus Christ.

You're actually comparing pocket sizes to cushion setting?
Pfft!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
AGREED!
WTF? Different cushion setting for straight pool and 9-ball?
WTH? What's next ? Different setting for one-pocket ?

Complaining about engineering ?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SURO7-dtBYo
Complain there and tell Brunswick not to use Reometer.
Or don't do the rebound test.
https://youtu.be/SURO7-dtBYo?t=453

Why should pool tables be harder for Pro's to play on than amateurs? Bowling lanes don't change, golf courses don't change and neither do the cups, basket ball rims are 10' from the floor on all courts, tennis courts don't change!!!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
You tell that to Diamond who insists on 4.5" 141*.
And all the sheep mechs who think 4.5" 141* was spec'd by Jesus Christ.

You're actually comparing pocket sizes to cushion setting?
Pfft!

Pocket sizes and cushion setting vary on ALL pool table's depending on the manufacture!!!!
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
You tell that to Diamond who insists on 4.5" 141*.
And all the sheep mechs who think 4.5" 141* was spec'd by Jesus Christ.

You're actually comparing pocket sizes to cushion setting?
Pfft!

If a pool table is a pool table, shouldn't ALL pool table's play the same????
 
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