Safety after the break 8 ball BCA rules & groups

J

jrappr

Registered
This happened last night. My opponent broke and sent 4 balls to the rails but left a cluster of about 7 balls still in the rack area. I had the table in position with a stripe up near side pockets and the 13 and 14 lined up toward lower right corner. I chose stripes but wanted to force opponent to shoot at cluster if possible. I declared safety. I shot the 13 into the 14 which dropped with the 13 left in center of jaws and cue ball on the end rail 3 inches away.

My opponent immediately aimed at the 13. I stopped them and said that I had established stripes with legal shot on 14. Opponent said that it was illegal to call safety before groups are established.

Looking at the rules my opponent was right. It is legal to shoot a safety after the break. It is a legal shot but groups are not established. I must confess I do not see the logic of this on the shot that I took. Why am I penalized for an obvious shot that would be legal any other time in the game? Please enlighten me on the logic here.
 
jojopiff

jojopiff

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jrappr said:
This happened last night. My opponent broke and sent 4 balls to the rails but left a cluster of about 7 balls still in the rack area. I had the table in position with a stripe up near side pockets and the 13 and 14 lined up toward lower right corner. I chose stripes but wanted to force opponent to shoot at cluster if possible. I declared safety. I shot the 13 into the 14 which dropped with the 13 left in center of jaws and cue ball on the end rail 3 inches away.

My opponent immediately aimed at the 13. I stopped them and said that I had established stripes with legal shot on 14. Opponent said that it was illegal to call safety before groups are established.

Looking at the rules my opponent was right. It is legal to shoot a safety after the break. It is a legal shot but groups are not established. I must confess I do not see the logic of this on the shot that I took. Why am I penalized for an obvious shot that would be legal any other time in the game? Please enlighten me on the logic here.
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Best way I could explain is you can't have your cake and eat it too. You haven't legally pocketed a ball yet. You called safe essentially making whatever you do after hitting your ball first, moot.
 
GideonF

GideonF

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jrappr said:
This happened last night. My opponent broke and sent 4 balls to the rails but left a cluster of about 7 balls still in the rack area. I had the table in position with a stripe up near side pockets and the 13 and 14 lined up toward lower right corner. I chose stripes but wanted to force opponent to shoot at cluster if possible. I declared safety. I shot the 13 into the 14 which dropped with the 13 left in center of jaws and cue ball on the end rail 3 inches away.

My opponent immediately aimed at the 13. I stopped them and said that I had established stripes with legal shot on 14. Opponent said that it was illegal to call safety before groups are established.

Looking at the rules my opponent was right. It is legal to shoot a safety after the break. It is a legal shot but groups are not established. I must confess I do not see the logic of this on the shot that I took. Why am I penalized for an obvious shot that would be legal any other time in the game? Please enlighten me on the logic here.
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My view of the logic is that, so far as I know, calling "safety" and making a ball only applies in call shot games as opposed to say 9 ball (note, I don't play APA/CPA so don't know what they do). I think the logic is that since I could call "side pocket" and then pocket it in the corner (and the ball stays down and no foul and your shot) then it is silly to not allow a person to call safety instead. Following that logic through, my shot of "safety" is just like sinking a ball in the wrong pocket, so it would not establish groups.

Gideon
 
D

Dockter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
GideonF said:
My view of the logic is that, so far as I know, calling "safety" and making a ball only applies in call shot games as opposed to say 9 ball (note, I don't play APA/CPA so don't know what they do). I think the logic is that since I could call "side pocket" and then pocket it in the corner (and the ball stays down and no foul and your shot) then it is silly to not allow a person to call safety instead. Following that logic through, my shot of "safety" is just like sinking a ball in the wrong pocket, so it would not establish groups.

Gideon
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Exactly. You don't call a pocket when you play a safety so therefore it's not a legally pocketed ball. Had you called the pocket it would still be your shot. You can't call 2 different shots in one go.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jrappr said:
This happened last night. My opponent broke and sent 4 balls to the rails but left a cluster of about 7 balls still in the rack area. I had the table in position with a stripe up near side pockets and the 13 and 14 lined up toward lower right corner. I chose stripes but wanted to force opponent to shoot at cluster if possible. I declared safety. I shot the 13 into the 14 which dropped with the 13 left in center of jaws and cue ball on the end rail 3 inches away.

My opponent immediately aimed at the 13. I stopped them and said that I had established stripes with legal shot on 14. Opponent said that it was illegal to call safety before groups are established.

Looking at the rules my opponent was right. It is legal to shoot a safety after the break. It is a legal shot but groups are not established. I must confess I do not see the logic of this on the shot that I took. Why am I penalized for an obvious shot that would be legal any other time in the game? Please enlighten me on the logic here.
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The only penalty you suffered was from not knowing the rules.

OFFICIAL RULES OF CUESPORTS INTERNATIONAL
2-6.1 Establishing Groups
Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety.

Clearly you should have called and made the 14 then played safe on the 13.

BTW combo shots are never obvious in the BCAPL and must always be called.
 
J

jrappr

Registered
SBpoolleague. Thanks, I was aware of the rule to call combos as not obvious but neglected it because the combo was so dead obvious. I allowed at the time that I should not have groups on that foul. Dockter's response provided the logic to the rule. You are not allowed to call two 'shot's' on one stroke. Either call a ball or call a safety. Making the ball is null as a call on a safety. The irony in my case was that I could have easily made a safe shot on the thirteen and still left in front of the pocket. In the future....
 
M

mrshifty

Registered
What you did is allowed in VNEA leagues. That is the problem with each orginaztion having there own rules.
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
mrshifty said:
What you did is allowed in VNEA leagues. That is the problem with each orginaztion having there own rules.
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I don't think so. In VNEA, to establish solids or stripes a ball must be called and pocketed legally. You cannot both call a ball and call a safety. Therefore you cannot establish groups on a safety.

I think people in VNEA get confused because the rules specifically call a safety shot a legal shot. Just because the shot was legal doesn't mean the ball was pocketed legally.
 
F

Fenwick

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You could have avoided all the conflict by calling the 13 14 combo and then make the 13 after calling a safe. Know the rules and consider this a lesson learned.
 
J

jrappr

Registered
Fenwick: You are exactly right. I think I acknowledged that in my reply above. Lucky for me this lesson came in a practice game.
 
tatcat2000

tatcat2000

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sbpoolleague said:
I don't think so. In VNEA, to establish solids or stripes a ball must be called and pocketed legally. You cannot both call a ball and call a safety. Therefore you cannot establish groups on a safety.

I think people in VNEA get confused because the rules specifically call a safety shot a legal shot. Just because the shot was legal doesn't mean the ball was pocketed legally.
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Actually, unless the VNEA rules have recently changed, it is legal in VNEA. VNEA rules do not contemplate the concept of an illegally pocketed ball. Please see the extensive discussion of the subject at:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880

Check post 20 for a comparison of BCAPL vs VNEA.

I don't think anything has changed since that discussion.

Buddy
 
sbpoolleague

sbpoolleague

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tatcat2000 said:
Actually, unless the VNEA rules have recently changed, it is legal in VNEA. VNEA rules do not contemplate the concept of an illegally pocketed ball. Please see the extensive discussion of the subject at:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=322880

Check post 20 for a comparison of BCAPL vs VNEA.

I don't think anything has changed since that discussion.

Buddy
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Any VNEA folks, including referees, that interpret their rules to say that a ball and pocket can be called as well as a safety are misinterpreting the rules. Their problem (other than the fact that the VNEA rules are way too over-simplified) is that they confuse the terms "legal shot" and "legally pocketed ball". When the rules say that a safety is defined as a "legal shot", that means that you must make a legal shot when declaring a safety or else you foul. It does not mean a ball made on a safety is a legally pocketed ball. And it certainly does not mean that you can call a ball and pocket while simultaneously calling a safety. The VNEA rules have NEVER said that, despite what a lot of VNEA folks have said.

There are many similar misinterpretations in the APA rules for the same reason. The over-simplified rule book. Pool rules are not as complicated as golf rules, but a rule book should be comprehensive enough to cover all possibilities of play and worded strictly so that it leaves no doubt.
 
M

mrshifty

Registered
I got my info from a VNEA ref, who wasn't sure, so he checked with the head VNEA ref. I absolutely do not agree with it, but that is the info that I have gotten.
 
DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
Silver Member
Consider another possibility in that first shot situation where you called safety and made the stripe: It is entirely possible that though it was obvious you were trying to make that stripe, your strategy may have actually been to take solids and entice your opponent to take stripes, since one ball was down already, another hanging, and you gave up the table to him.
 
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