As you get better should you use a harder tip?

abs

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
:
Actually, don't believe everything you read there.
.

Is there something specific you care to call-out on the site that's not accurate? An honest question. We should always maintain a critical eye and ear when taking in information, no matter who it comes from.

What I do like about Dr. Dave and his associates are they apply the scientific method to their tests, and present their method to their audience so anybody should be able to identify a problem in their tests and also recreate and repeat them. Unless somebody has some contradicting scientifically derived information, it's hard to argue with the information they provide. Not to say it's all flawless, even the best scientists get it wrong sometimes.
 

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tips get harder as they wear down, so you will experience different levels of hardness throughout the normal life of any tip. I look for a tip that remains fairly constant throughout its life, and it seems that layered tips are better in this regard. Tips like LePro and Elk Master (if not milk dudded) start fairly soft and harden substantially as they wear. I used to play with Le Pro exclusively - they started out feeling like a marshmallow, then at 50%-75% worn I felt they were perfect, then at 90% worn they were great for hitting full-cue jump shots but had a tendency to cause miscues. I also busted a bunch of ferrules when I was wearing Le Pros down to the nub.

Someone mentioned Efren; I know he has played with non-layered tips, but I also know that he has struggled at times with his tips. One tournament in particular he was in the final rounds and had played the whole tournament without being able to use max draw without miscuing. It's hard to argue with anything that man does, but I personally feel he should have switch to a layered tip years ago.

I now play with Kamui black soft and I have the installer remove some layers (not sure how many, but probably 3 or so) during installation for more consistency. KBS also harden over time, but they don't get rock hard until the very end of their life. Like most other tips, they have a tendency to glaze and even mushroom slightly, but you will need some good tip tools in your bag no matter what tip you choose.

Best,
Aaron
 
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Tips get harder as they wear down,

Are you sure about that?

When my tips are new, I go through a period of mushrooming. This mushrooming seems to be a cause of the leather either changing shape and/or gaining volume (i.e. the leather fibers realigning themselves in a less dense configuration).

What I don't see is the leather actually getting harder.

Because the tip is by far the softest part of the cue, a thinner tip will effectively act/feel like a harder tip than when it was much thicker.
 

ceodynamo

Have cue will travel
Silver Member
as i have gotten better

The more I play and the better I get, my preference is a soft tip.

Currently shooting with a Kamui black soft tip. I love it, I like it cut down half way.
 

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you sure about that?

When my tips are new, I go through a period of mushrooming. This mushrooming seems to be a cause of the leather either changing shape and/or gaining volume (i.e. the leather fibers realigning themselves in a less dense configuration).

What I don't see is the leather actually getting harder.

Because the tip is by far the softest part of the cue, a thinner tip will effectively act/feel like a harder tip than when it was much thicker.

Well, I'm sure they play harder, which is probably how I should have phrased that. Whether it is due to decrease in volume of leather or the compacting of what leather is there, I'm not sure. My experience with Le Pro leads me to believe that the leather fibers become more compacted over time - perhaps there is a certain degree of moisture that is absorbed as well, making the leather fibers tougher or more compacted. Either way, they definitely play harder. I allowed my last Kamui to get very low, and it was virtually unplayable at the end for whatever reason.

Aaron
 
Well, I'm sure they play harder, which is probably how I should have phrased that. Whether it is due to decrease in volume of leather or the compacting of what leather is there, I'm not sure. My experience with Le Pro leads me to believe that the leather fibers become more compacted over time - perhaps there is a certain degree of moisture that is absorbed as well, making the leather fibers tougher or more compacted. Either way, they definitely play harder. I allowed my last Kamui to get very low, and it was virtually unplayable at the end for whatever reason.

Aaron

Well stated. I'm not positive they don't get harder, but as you said, they definitely will play like a harder tip when they are thinner.
 

supergreenman

truly addicted
Silver Member
A hard tip will not give you more room for error. If anything it will give you less, particularly when applying extreme levels of spin as the hard tip will miscue a lot easier than a soft tip that can grab a little on the edges. Due to less "give" with the hard tip, it will transfer more energy than a soft tip. This can give you more velocity and action on the CB with less stroke.

I disagree with the entire idea that a soft tip can grab a CB more than a hard tip.
 

Kimmo H.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with tips getting harder with use. Thats the part that makes testing different tips a time consuming as it takes about two weeks of active play for the tip to settle and feel like they feel for the most part of their lives. This effect is especially radical with softer tips, hard tips dont seem that bad, they stay the way they are a lot better and thats one of the biggest benefits over softer ones. Maybe i'll try a hard kamui on my playing cue when the current medium one wears down :smile:
 
...it takes about two weeks of active play for the tip to settle and feel like they feel for the most part of their lives...

Two weeks of active play? As in it needs to be played with for 376hrs? Is that hitting a ball every fifteen seconds for those 376hrs?

Are you saying it takes over 90000 shots for a tip to break in?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Here's a quote from Dr. Dave's page there:

"Bob Jewett

If both [harder and softer] tips can only hold to a certain point of offset, and you start your shot so the miscue point is barely reached at the end of contact, the average offset will be larger for the harder tip. This means that the harder tip can create more spin for a given ball speed."


This seems to say that the average tip offset from center ball during the duration of tip/CB contact is what determines the "amount" of spin (I assume Bob means the spin-to-speed ratio). To put it another way, the "effective tip offset" is in the center of the range of offsets while the tip is in contact with the rotating CB.

Do we know that the "effective tip offset" is at the center of the "contact range"? Why not at the beginning or end of it? Does it matter in the comparison of hard vs. soft tips (shorter vs. longer contact times)?

Just curious...

pj
chgo
 

Kimmo H.

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope, it takes about 2 weeks of actual time passed from installation to being "broken in" with the rate that I play. I play for about 1.5 -2 hours per day, so it takes about 20-30 hours of play. Which in my case means playing against someone 80% of time and playing on my own for the rest of the time. Its not that many shots taken, but I have found the two weeks in use for me to be an approximate time to break tips in. Atleast thats how I feel about it :)

Everyone will have their own opinion on this, just as in everything about pool. It's hard to discuss these matters with pure facts and accurate information as most of the aspects of this game are purely based on a persons own feel. This for ever going tip talk is one of these things. We all have out opinions, they all differ from the next guy and thats a really good thing. This keeps the market going and the possibility for new products to come in as players have, and always will compare and try out something new.
Many of these players seek some sort of guidelines from these forums regarding the personal opinions of others to find a starting point for their own testing of different tips. Atleast thats what I think these "whats the best tip for XXX" threads are about. And I'm willing to share my experiences with them as I have done a lot of testing with these out of personal curiosity in tips in general.
Not trying to be a know-it-all *ss, just trying to help folks out that are now where I was very recently. Trying to find the tip that feels right for you. The tip seems to be the most important single thing that affects the way a cue hits and plays :eek:

Oh, the last bit went a bit off topic, but I'll just leave it there in case it brings up some opinions or thoughts :rolleyes:
 
Nope, it takes about 2 weeks of actual time passed from installation to being "broken in" with the rate that I play. I play for about 1.5 -2 hours per day, so it takes about 20-30 hours of play. Which in my case means playing against someone 80% of time and playing on my own for the rest of the time. Its not that many shots taken, but I have found the two weeks in use for me to be an approximate time to break tips in. Atleast thats how I feel about it :)

Everyone will have their own opinion on this, just as in everything about pool. It's hard to discuss these matters with pure facts and accurate information as most of the aspects of this game are purely based on a persons own feel. This for ever going tip talk is one of these things. We all have out opinions, they all differ from the next guy and thats a really good thing. This keeps the market going and the possibility for new products to come in as players have, and always will compare and try out something new.
Many of these players seek some sort of guidelines from these forums regarding the personal opinions of others to find a starting point for their own testing of different tips. Atleast thats what I think these "whats the best tip for XXX" threads are about. And I'm willing to share my experiences with them as I have done a lot of testing with these out of personal curiosity in tips in general.
Not trying to be a know-it-all *ss, just trying to help folks out that are now where I was very recently. Trying to find the tip that feels right for you. The tip seems to be the most important single thing that affects the way a cue hits and plays :eek:

Oh, the last bit went a bit off topic, but I'll just leave it there in case it brings up some opinions or thoughts :rolleyes:

I'd agree with most of what you said here.
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
I am working on my fundamentals but I'm also considering whether or not a harder tip gives you a little more room for error.

If they did, don't you think every pro who relies on their play for a living, would all be using a harder tip?
 

9Ballr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I doubt that. I think a softer tip grabs the cue ball more and gives you more spin.


I have never noticed that the soft tips get more spin on the cue ball at all.
If anything I find hard tips might get a tad more action than the soft because you don't have to hit the ball very hard to get it to spin.
Smaller tip, yes maybe, but softer tip....nah....never.

I would understand if you said soft tip gives a different feeling and different sound. That's obvious.

The tip touches the cue ball for such a short period of time that I doubt the tip can make a big difference on cueball spin and action. We're talking micro second here.
This isn't like rubber on tires.

I like hard tips and have stayed with those because I like how consistent they hit, and I just like the feel, and IF ANYTHING I like how little I softly I can hit the cueball and still get it to move.
I also sometimes use a small tip (Predator Z2) so major action on that, although I definitely prefer traditional shafts.
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Thanks, I stand corrected.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water...

The tip test was done at high speed to eliminate swerve... Since tips act like springs high speed and higher forces would turn them all effectively into solids where you would expect similar deflection rates...

Some of the jury is still out on what the differences are with a soft vs hard tip when discussing deflection at slower stroke speeds... Even tho there have been some tests saying speed is not relevant the tips tested may have impacted the results..

If a soft tip is still in contact with the ball as the shaft starts to move away from contact I can see no way that the cueball will not be carried with it slightly back towards the shot line.... We know that the old tip contact time of 1ms has been debunked by the Russians so there is more to learn....

What needs to be done is some serious in depth testing using high speed cameras testing different hardness grades and different stroke speeds... Dr Dave has a premise and preliminary tests and they may hold true but at this point there are a lot of knowledgeable industry members in disagreement.. Tony at Blackboar and Bob Meucci being 2 of the biggest off the top of my head...
 

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Here's a quote from Dr. Dave's page there:

"Bob Jewett

If both [harder and softer] tips can only hold to a certain point of offset, and you start your shot so the miscue point is barely reached at the end of contact, the average offset will be larger for the harder tip. This means that the harder tip can create more spin for a given ball speed."


This seems to say that the average tip offset from center ball during the duration of tip/CB contact is what determines the "amount" of spin (I assume Bob means the spin-to-speed ratio). To put it another way, the "effective tip offset" is in the center of the range of offsets while the tip is in contact with the rotating CB.

Do we know that the "effective tip offset" is at the center of the "contact range"? Why not at the beginning or end of it? Does it matter in the comparison of hard vs. soft tips (shorter vs. longer contact times)?

Just curious...

pj
chgo


Great questions PJ since as you said there is a difference in contact times... IF the contact time of a soft tip carries it past what would have been the misscue limit, will the tip misscue, slip or just release the cueball earlier than it's spring rate said it should? That would be if the end is what matters.... but if it's not the end and it's the center or beginning then what?.....

I think I could lock myself in a room with a pool table and good high speeds cameras for years if I ever win the lottery... I think there are several of us on here... LOL
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
To further add to the variables already mentioned, I would also guess that if the cue is decelerating at the moment of impact with the cue ball (a big no no for a good stroke but it seems that lots of people do it at least occasionally) the tip contact time with the cue ball will be shorter, and if the cue is accelerating at impact the tip contact time will be longer with the greater rates of acceleration leading to the longest tip contact times. My guess is that the difference in tip contact time due to the rate of acceleration/deceleration of the cue stick are pretty inconsequential in the spectrum of real world pool strokes that happen in games.

But even if the rate of acceleration/deceleration of the stick at the moment of impact had a fairly consequential effect on the tip contact time, it still leads you back to the issue of whether additional contact time even translates into more spin. My guess here is that if increased contact time does lead to increased spin, that increase in spin is too insignificant to be consequential for practical purposes in real game play, and the evidence and experiments conducted to date seem to support that.

On a side note, I often see people referring to cue tip "slippage", as in the tip is sliding against/along the cue ball at something less than a full miscue. I have yet to see any real evidence of this, and if it does indeed happen, I theorize that it happens only very rarely and when it does it has little effect on the amount of spin that is applied to the cue ball. In other words it is essentially a non-factor with little affect on anything. For the most part, when you have two relatively hard, round and smooth objects colliding against each other at a deflecting angle (and even more so when said collision is at high speeds), you are going to have essentially no slippage, or full slippage (miscue). I think tip "slippage" that is short of miscuing is for the most part a fallacy that doesn't really exist under game conditions.
 
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