Hal Houle

Colin Colenso said:

Jim,
I meant both you and Dave are MY friends. Don't assume everything is about 2 camps of Us v Them

In my diagram, bridge position is the fulcrum position of the cue. The center of the cue above the effective V of the bridge, not necessarily where the bottom of the V in your hand is positioned, which as you say may be slightly offset.

The challenge is open to anyone.

Point is, I think most have accepted that there needs to be different offsets from the CTE line for different angle cuts, even when the CB and OB are at the same distances apart, though you disagree?

Please go try the two shots I diagramed, marking the position of the balls. Then line up to both shots and mark a specific position of your bridge hand. Lets say the point directly under the tip of the thumb.

Then look at the CTE line precisely and see at what distance it passes those bridge reference points.

Colin

Click to expand...

Point is, I think most have accepted that there needs to be different offsets from the CTE line for different angle cuts, even when the CB and OB are at the same distances apart, though you disagree?

Click to expand...

Yes, I do disagree that different bridge hand position offsets are needed for different cut angles. And I disagree that "most have accepted that" as being true.

I think the only ones who have accepted that premise are those who have not been trained on the system...and don't understand it.

I am talking about LEVEL 1...NOT Pro One which gets into systematic adjustments when Level 1 doesn't work (in only a FEW instances is that true) and with the use of English.

Please go try the two shots I diagramed, marking the position of the balls. Then line up to both shots and mark a specific position of your bridge hand. Lets say the point directly under the tip of the thumb.

Click to expand...

Colin, I HAVE tried those shots and by now a THOUSAND more shots (at least) and up to the points that Level 1 breaks down, I place my bridge hand in EXACTLY the same relationship to the CTE line...as far as humanly possible.

It seems that you are trying to shoe horn in the need for a non-systematic element...i.e. a non-standardized adjustment of the bridge hand in order to make the shots go.

That, of course, renders the "system" not a system at all but rather, just another form of guessing. But that is simply incorrect and a GROWING number of posters are weighing in to confirm that the Level 1 phase of the system works as stated.

In addition to those posted on the forum, I've lost count of the number of PMs I've received saying...YES IT WORKS.

I have also had quite a number of PMs asking for my system that applies to very thin and SUPER thin cuts that are outside Level 1 but I'm not going to post comments on that system on the forum because I don't care to be jumped on like the NIT who said I was wrong..."as usual" or by others who will simply say that I am not doing what I say I am doing.

Any interested parties can PM me.

I can't recall anyone saying that Dave's method can't work. It obviously works very well.

Click to expand...

Gimme a break Colin. There have been DOZENS of such comments if not SCORES of them!

And in fact, as soon as I catch up to the end of this thread so far, some will be PLEASED to know that I won't make any more comments on CTE.

I have said what I have to say.

Regards,
Jim

Again, I would not presume to answer for Stan but you might consider presenting a graph that is correct. In yours, the balls will NOT go where you suggest they will.

You have the OBs departing on the line of centers of the ghost ball/OBs and with a center ball hit which is what is required in Level 1 CTE, the OBs will not track that line due to CIT.

Virtually all instructors/authors have written extensively on that issue including Dr. Dave and I suggest you review his instructions along those lines.

Over and out of this discussion.

Jim

bluepepper said:

Hello Stan. Thanks for subjecting yourself to this microsurgery.
If you could, please take a look at the 2 pages of the cuetable layouts below:

The first page shows 4 object balls positioned so that their outside edges all connect via the same line to the cueball center. It also shows where the ghost ball would be to pocket all shots in the upper left corner pocket. Please excuse the cuetable anomalies. Sometimes when you save a layout, the circles on the lines move slightly.

The second page shows the same solidified system of balls and lines, but tilted slightly counterclockwise. The angles that the object balls release off of the blue center-to-edge line are the same as on page one. In this case, of course, the balls don't go into the upper left corner pocket. So whatever bridge placement and pivot was used to sink the balls on page one, couldn't be used to sink the balls into the same pocket on page two.

You mentioned that adjustments are necessary in the Pro One system. Can you describe the sort of adjustments you would make to pocket all 8 shots?
Thanks for taking the time.

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

av84fun said:

Colin, I HAVE tried those shots and by now a THOUSAND more shots (at least) and up to the points that Level 1 breaks down, I place my bridge hand in EXACTLY the same relationship to the CTE line...as far as humanly possible.


Regards,
Jim

Click to expand...

If you had really paid attention to what you are doing Jim, you'd realize that the fulcrum must in fact be on different sides of the CTE line to make those shots diagrammed. 20 and 40 degrees.

My challenge is still out to you or anyone else to prove differently.

You've admitted you don't know much about geometry Jim. Yet, if you can do what you say you can do you'd be worthy of a nobel prize in mathematics. That's an amazing step up.

What is annoying is how you lambaste people for saying you are wrong, yet hardly ever hesitate in calling myself and others wrong in capitals and with ad hominems attached.

Colin

bluepepper said:

The two proper contact points must connect to make the shot, but think about this....

You really only need to sense one of the contact points. If you can sense where the front of the CB contact point is, all you have to do is sense how to touch that point to the OB. There's no other place it can touch except the proper point on the OB. This OB point would automatically correspond.

Same goes for the contact point on the OB. It can't be touched by anything other than the proper point on the CB. So grazing/touching/rubbing the OB contact point automatically connects the proper CB contact point.

I know this seems obvious, but it may be a useful reduction of the mental process of aiming this way.

Click to expand...

I think that's really helpful - I had never thought of it that way and had always "imagined" the point on the CB and the point on the OB that I had to match up.

In your graph, your line runs from the center of the CG to the left or outside edge of the OB and is therefore correct.

But THAT LINE extends to the RIGHT...INSIDE edge of the 6 ball and therefore is NOT on the CTE Line as correctly defined.

Click to expand...

You apparently don't understand my diagram or the purpose of it.

There is no line in my diagram that runs to the left edge of the 1 ball - the black line on the right runs through the center of the near ghost ball (that's its purpose) and inside the 1 ball's left edge about 1/4 radius in. The black line on the left runs through the center of the far ghost ball (that's its purpose) and slightly outside the 1 ball's left edge.

The left edges of the 1 ball and the 6 ball both line up with the CB's center, as they did in the original diagram (with all 6 balls lined up). This diagram is a copy of that original one with the other balls removed. The CB, 1 ball and 6 ball have not been moved - they still line up the same way; you can draw a line between them and check if you want to. That might have been a smart thing to do before you went off on another mistaken rant.

pj
chgo

Originally Posted by mbvl
As usual you are completely wrong. The CTE line does not appear at all in Patrick's diagram. The two lines drawn are the lines of aim required to make the two balls. If you were to draw the CTE lines, you would see that they coincide.

Mark

Click to expand...

I don't know who rattled your cage but you need to brush up on your reading skills.

This is what PATRICK posted...

The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball.

It FLAT DOES NOT and Stan POSTED that it DOES NOT...Is he usually wrong too in your opinion?

Click to expand...

He's wrong in this case, and so are you. You're both mistaken about where the lines in my diagram go and what they mean. More than one other poster understood the diagram and question completely.

Being mistaken isn't a sin, but maybe you should emulate Stan and try not to be so belligerent about it. That way fewer people will notice.

pj
chgo

dr_dave said:

Patrick,

Excellent question and diagram! Hopefully, after the hundreds of postings (and rantings), we can now get to the heart of the matter.

Stan, thank you very much for deciding to participate.

Regards,
Dave

Click to expand...

I hoped so too, Dave, but it looks like the question has been derailed (by the usual rock on the tracks).

Maybe next time.

pj
chgo

bluepepper:
You really only need to sense one of the contact points. If you can sense where the front of the CB contact point is, all you have to do is sense how to touch that point to the OB. There's no other place it can touch except the proper point on the OB. This OB point would automatically correspond.

Click to expand...

How do you "sense" where the CB contact point is without first "sensing" where the OB contact point is?

pj
chgo

stan shuffett said:

Patrick, The eyes see CTE. The head makes an adjustment to the right on the way down for the 2nd ball. The eyes see the left edge of the CB. The cue is pivoted to the exact center of the CB. The ball goes. Phase 1 and 2 are necessary training for level 3 or PRO ONE.

I trained a student today in PRO ONE. He learned all 3 phases in 5 hours. This particular student can play immediately in PRO ONE with regular brief reviews of Phase 1 and 2 over the next few weeks.
To all the good folks at AZ.... I appreciate your support.
Stan

Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer, Stan, but from your comment in another post ("the diagram shows the CTE line incorrectly postioned for the 2nd ball. It should cross the left edge") I can see that you're misinterpreting how the balls and shots line up in my diagram (from misinformation given to you by another poster).

I'd try to unravel the misunderstanding with you, but as usual with this topic there's too much posturing, noise and distraction for a real discussion to be comfortably had, so I won't ask you to continue now.

You have my email address, so if you'd care to talk in private I'd be glad to explain my question and listen to your answer without the distractions.

Either way, thanks for trying.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

How do you "sense" where the CB contact point is without first "sensing" where the OB contact point is?

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

I think it's possible, but it was just to make the point that once you know where one of the contact points is, you just need to have a feel for rubbing that contact point with the other ball, because no other point but the other ball's contact point can do it.

A way to sense the contact point on the CB would be to picture the line running from the pocket to anywhere through the center of the OB, such as the "dark side" contact point, the top, resting point on the cloth, or the opposite cushion. Then use the parallel line to determine the CB contact point.
This is going out of the way to avoid seeing the contact point on the OB, but it's just to show that you don't necessarily need to concern yourself with it to find the contact point on the CB.

By the way, I like that term "dark side" to refer to the other side of a ball, like the dark side of the moon. Did you come up with that?

av84fun said:

Again, I would not presume to answer for Stan but you might consider presenting a graph that is correct. In yours, the balls will NOT go where you suggest they will.

You have the OBs departing on the line of centers of the ghost ball/OBs and with a center ball hit which is what is required in Level 1 CTE, the OBs will not track that line due to CIT.

Virtually all instructors/authors have written extensively on that issue including Dr. Dave and I suggest you review his instructions along those lines.

Over and out of this discussion.

Jim

Click to expand...

Oh. Of course! Thanks for pointing that out. It's the cueball induced throw that invalidates the set up in the diagram. I was wondering why I just couldn't get my inadequate imagination to see beyond the minutia and imagine the balls going into that pocket. With CIT mucking things up all the time, how will I ever keep the balls from flying off the table?

I like that term "dark side" to refer to the other side of a ball, like the dark side of the moon. Did you come up with that?

Click to expand...

Far as I know... seemed like the obvious analogy (av84fun: I know it's not really "dark").

I see what you're saying about not needing to actually "see" the OB contact point - I only mentioned it because I thought it might confuse some to think the OB CP (or some surrogate for it, like the "parallel aiming line" you mentioned) could be completely ignored.

pj
chgo

I set up my usual spot shot from the top of the kitchen with the CB on the left side just off of the side rail there. I usually aim the center of the CB to the left edge around the equator of the OB (CTE) on the spot.

I then place my cue on line to the left side of the CB parallel to the CTE. I pivot my cue to hit the CB center ball. The CB travels to and hits the OB around the center of the OB thus missing the spot shot to the (left of the) right corner pocket.

I then place my cue on line to the right side of the CB parallel to the CTE. I pivot my cue to hit the CB center ball. The CB travels to outside of the left side of the OB thus missing the spot shot to the (right of the) right corner pocket.

If I hit the CTE, I would make the spot shot - why do I need to offset the cue and pivot?

Patrick Johnson said:

He's wrong in this case, and so are you. You're both mistaken about where the lines in my diagram go and what they mean. More than one other poster understood the diagram and question completely.

Being mistaken isn't a sin, but maybe you should emulate Stan and try not to be so belligerent about it. That way fewer people will notice.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Patrick,

When I wrote:

"The CTE line does not appear at all in Patrick's diagram. The two lines drawn are the lines of aim required to make the two balls. If you were to draw the CTE lines, you would see that they coincide."

I guess I should have made it clearer which lines "coincide". I didn't mean that your two lines coincide with the CTE lines, I meant that IF the CTE lines had been shown they would coincide with each other. You and I are in complete agreement, I think.

Mark

Patrick, I looked for a line to cross the outside edge of the 2nd ball. I did not see it so I presumed the line to be incorrect. I did not mean to misinterpret. I was focused for another reason.
Perhaps one we'll have a chance for some give and take over a table.
Stan

mbvl said:

Patrick,

When I wrote:

"The CTE line does not appear at all in Patrick's diagram. The two lines drawn are the lines of aim required to make the two balls. If you were to draw the CTE lines, you would see that they coincide."

I guess I should have made it clearer which lines "coincide". I didn't mean that your two lines coincide with the CTE lines, I meant that IF the CTE lines had been shown they would coincide with each other. You and I are in complete agreement, I think.

Mark

Click to expand...

Yes, I understood you and we're in agreement (and right about this). It's not at all unusual to be violently misunderstood by the other poster. Best to just walk away.

pj
chgo

stan shuffett said:

Patrick, I looked for a line to cross the outside edge of the 2nd ball. I did not see it so I presumed the line to be incorrect. I did not mean to misinterpret. I was focused for another reason.
Perhaps one we'll have a chance for some give and take over a table.
Stan

Click to expand...

No problem, Stan. As I said, this is often not the best place for being understood because of the unnecessary noise level surrounding this topic in particular. It's ironic that your input got confused by somebody who believes he's "defending" you and your system (we don't know from what exactly).

Another time or place will be fine. Thanks for trying - and welcome to AZB (such as it is)!

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

He's wrong in this case, and so are you. You're both mistaken about where the lines in my diagram go and what they mean. More than one other poster understood the diagram and question completely.

Being mistaken isn't a sin, but maybe you should emulate Stan and try not to be so belligerent about it. That way fewer people will notice.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Well looks like mbvl shouldn't be so quick to fire the flame thrower!

LOL

Oh, poor wounded Patrick. You have been one of the MOST belligerent, arrogant and snide posters on this forum since day one.

It is possible that "more than one" poster understood your diagram. I am one of them. But your PREMISE concerning CTE alignment was misstated.

Your "questions" on this system are not genuine as everyone who posts here regularly knows. You are ON RECORD that the system FLAT does not work. You are ON RECORD that NO system works...that they ALL must be consciously or subconsciously modified by the shooter.

Stan doesn't realize all that because he doesn't spend much time on this forum...which only proves that he is wiser than you and me.

So, you just remain the Poobah of Pontification on this forum while the young man who Stan mentioned goes all the way to Pro One in 5 hours.

That being the case, I guarantee you he can drill you but STILL... in the face of SUBSTANTIAL rave reviews from highly credible sources, instead of having a free phone lesson offered to you, you decline and prefer to hold yourself out as some sort of "geo-wizard" pontificating to us poor, misguided children who really don't understand what we are doing.

TOO FUNNY Patrick.

(-:

bluepepper said:

Oh. Of course! Thanks for pointing that out. It's the cueball induced throw that invalidates the set up in the diagram. I was wondering why I just couldn't get my inadequate imagination to see beyond the minutia and imagine the balls going into that pocket. With CIT mucking things up all the time, how will I ever keep the balls from flying off the table?

Click to expand...

Sarcasm doesn't make your diagram correct. And if you think that CIT is minutia then you have a lot more to learn than I thought you did.

Too bad you take such offense over being corrected. But the reason I did is that a fundamental and fascinating aspect of CTE is that it automatically accounts for CIT.

Because the system directs the ball to a contact point that results in the shot going, it clearly DOES NOT direct the ball to the geometric contact point because if it did, the shots would not go due to CIT.

That is why I pointed out the error in your diagram...not to be petty but because it was FUNDAMENTALLY incorrect within the context of the discussion of CTE.

But if you want to be a child instead of an adult and refuse to accept being corrected then fine. Whatever.

Jim

(-:

Patrick Johnson said:

Thanks for the answer, Stan, but from your comment in another post ("the diagram shows the CTE line incorrectly postioned for the 2nd ball. It should cross the left edge") I can see that you're misinterpreting how the balls and shots line up in my diagram (from misinformation given to you by another poster).
I'd try to unravel the misunderstanding with you, but as usual with this topic there's too much posturing, noise and distraction for a real discussion to be comfortably had, so I won't ask you to continue now.

You have my email address, so if you'd care to talk in private I'd be glad to explain my question and listen to your answer without the distractions.

Either way, thanks for trying.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

No....you wrote..."The cue ball has the same center-to-edge alignment with the 1 ball and with the 6 ball."

That is FLAT WRONG. If you weren't so bound and determined to do what you ALWAYS have regarding aiming systems...that being to assert that NONE of them work and ALL of them involve subconscious player adjustment...you would understand why you are wrong.

As defined in the system, your above quote is incorrect and the CTE line between the CB and the 1 and 6 ball respectively are NOT the same.

Stan knows that but he is a gentleman and has not YET been insulted by you as often as is your habit with other people who would dare to disagree with the Poobah of Pontification.

(-:

Jim