The future of pool

CJ Wiley · Jun 22, 2014

taking what's worked (production wise) in tennis, poker, golf, football, etc.

macguy said:
macguy said:

I don't want to always be the devil's advocate, but NASCAR has a product. I can't for the life of me see the product in Professional pool. I say professional pool because that is what I think you are talking about, amateur pool seems to be doing fine in fact it may be thriving.

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Of course no one can see it, the concept of professional pool has not been released. The current "pool shows" are just two people playing pool and the commenters constantly trying to guess what shot they are going to choose.....this is horrible.

We're not putting a pool player on the moon for goodness sake, it's just a matter of taking what's worked (production wise) in tennis, poker, golf, football, basketball, and NASCAR and applying it to pool. Again, this isn't "rocket science," it's a matter of giving the human mind needs to be entertained using pool as a vehicle.

For this to happen "only" everything has to change, adapt, and reorganize how pool is perceived by the general public.....it's not about pleasing "hard core pool fans," as a matter of fact if it pleases them it probably hasn't changed enough to be successful.

It's amazing that no one's ever figured this out before.....of course if they had there would be no opportunity to be pioneers. There are more than one production company pursuing this and they will make it happen.....we believe it has a hundred million dollar potential. Whatever the potential, it's certainly higher than any other sport or game right now. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Ruark · Jun 22, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
Strong emotion drives people to do and say things they normally wouldn't. Pool has to drive this emotion, and it's not "fun," it's much more intense, stimulating and may even elicit strong beliefs......"I hate that player because......." Look at NASCAR, they're some of the greatest at marketing emotion, and their results are undeniable.

That's true.

Yeah, NASCAR. Lots of emotion. A 450 cubic inch V8 at 7000 RPM with open pipes, thundering by at 200+ mph. Not one, but 30 of them. You can feel the ground shaking. Horrific, multi-car, high-speed crashes. Heart attack pit stops. And sometimes people get killed - they die horrible, ripping, tearing, flaming deaths. Lots of emotion-building material there.

This is what I referenced in an earlier post on another thread. CRASH!!!... the bowling ball slams into the pins. THWACCKK! A 100 mph crosscourt tennis forehand. WHAMMMM! A 200 mile race car wreck. THUDD!!! A pro wrestler slams into the mat. POW!!! The baseball bat hits a home run. ROAAARRRR!!!! The crowd of 80,000 rises to its feet at the touchdown. SWIIISHHHK!! A golf ball sails 300 yards down a par-5 fairway.

And pool? ...click...thunk.... Wheeeee, how exciting. Heck, it's more exciting than turtle racing. Where's the emotion? Maybe make it like Roller Derby or pro wrestling - break a cue over your opponent's head, and cover him with fake blood? Elbow him in the middle of a shot? Wear a flaming face mask?

That's silly, of course, but it seems like we keep coming back to the same, fundamental question: how to make pool interesting and appealing enough for modern people to choose playing pool over their other leisure time options. And nobody has really come up with an answer yet. How would you create a revival of interest in electric trains? Stamp collecting? Pretty much the same ball of wax.

Ruark · Jun 22, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
Of course no one can see it, the concept of professional pool has not been released. The current "pool shows" are just two people playing pool and the commenters constantly trying to guess what shot they are going to choose.....this is horrible.

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I agree 100% Heaven forbid that somebody would hold a gun to my head and force me to watch 3 hours of TV pool.

CJ Wiley said:

...it's just a matter of taking what's worked (production wise) in tennis, poker, golf, football, basketball, and NASCAR and applying it to pool. Again, this isn't "rocket science," it's a matter of giving the human mind needs to be entertained using pool as a vehicle.

For this to happen "only" everything has to change, adapt, and reorganize how pool is perceived by the general public.....it's not about pleasing "hard core pool fans," as a matter of fact if it pleases them it probably hasn't changed enough to be successful.

It's amazing that no one's ever figured this out before.....[/IMG]

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I think EVERYBODY has figured this out. What nobody has figured out is HOW to do it, if it can be done at all. It's like saying, "what we must do is cure cancer and heart disease, and eliminate war and poverty." Uh, yeah, right. You're right. That's exactly what we need to do. That would work. Yes sir. OOOOOOOOOK.... well... uh.... OK.... uh....

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CJ Wiley · Jun 22, 2014

In other words, it's a mystery why pool production is still in the "dark ages"

Maybe if we could get some "Matches to the Death" arranged it would make things for interesting. I would play that way as long as there was no time limit.

At least the loser should get a finger cut off......

There are many ways to make pool entertaining that have not been utilized.....according to our research there's a model that works for all sports and the only reason pool hasn't used this model.......is no one has used this model in pool. In other words, it's a mystery why it hasn't been done, probably just a lack of communication. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Ruark said:
That's true.

Yeah, NASCAR. Lots of emotion. A 450 cubic inch V8 at 7000 RPM with open pipes, thundering by at 200+ mph. Not one, but 30 of them. You can feel the ground shaking. Horrific, multi-car, high-speed crashes. Heart attack pit stops. And sometimes people get killed - they die horrible, ripping, tearing, flaming deaths. Lots of emotion-building material there.

This is what I referenced in an earlier post on another thread. CRASH!!!... the bowling ball slams into the pins. THWACCKK! A 100 mph crosscourt tennis forehand. WHAMMMM! A 200 mile race car wreck. THUDD!!! A pro wrestler slams into the mat. POW!!! The baseball bat hits a home run. ROAAARRRR!!!! The crowd of 80,000 rises to its feet at the touchdown. SWIIISHHHK!! A golf ball sails 300 yards down a par-5 fairway.

And pool? ...click...thunk.... Wheeeee, how exciting. Heck, it's more exciting than turtle racing. Where's the emotion? Maybe make it like Roller Derby or pro wrestling - break a cue over your opponent's head, and cover him with fake blood? Elbow him in the middle of a shot? Wear a flaming face mask?

That's silly, of course, but it seems like we keep coming back to the same, fundamental question: how to make pool interesting and appealing enough for modern people to choose playing pool over their other leisure time options. And nobody has really come up with an answer yet. How would you create a revival of interest in electric trains? Stamp collecting? Pretty much the same ball of wax.

Ruark · Jun 22, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
...according to our research there's a model that works for all sports....

And that model is.......????? (drum roll) :scratchhead:

336Robin · Jun 22, 2014

Ruark said:
And that model is.......????? (drum roll) :scratchhead:

That model is....there are multiple consulting companies working on this and its soon to come....we think there is a 100,000,000 dollar possibilities.....

I'm sorry but you know I've been hearing something play....I think its the Pied Piper. I don't think I would feel like this if anything substantial were laid out but I just don't think that is going to happen so....

I tend to like to deal with reality. The one that should be dealt with when looking for new customers. You need customers in order to keep pool places in business. Some end up players and some don't. I think that is an acceptable loss because pool wins every time. Just for the record I will remain positive on the future and everything looks great!!! I just can't wait for it happen....Oh when the Saints come marching in....

336Robin · Jun 22, 2014

No Fun?

CJ Wiley said:
I don't think "fun" is an emotion that people even understand, much less have the ability to achieve regularly (as a potential anchor for pool).

Strong emotion drives people to do and say things they normally wouldn't. Pool has to drive this emotion, and it's not "fun," it's much more intense, stimulating and may even elicit strong beliefs......"I hate that player because......." Look at NASCAR, they're some of the greatest at marketing emotion, and their results are undeniable.

"Capture the people's emotional state and their hearts and minds will follow" - The Game is the Teacher'

So people don't know fun...ie ....elation? Maybe not toward Professional Sports, but I find myself wondering how people who are just beginning seem to laugh and joke and appear to be enjoying themselves....if this is not fun? what is it?

For a beginner a solitary get into it run racks out kind of thing is something that is a bit of downer sometimes a big downer when they cant figure out how it all works so solitary games can be a good way to discourage unless you put something in it that makes it more fun.

When you have people lining up to put quarters on a table to play the King of Table that gets a lot of interest and therefore becomes fun.

When you play partners games the same way again ...fun and probably more fun that singles.

People want to be social and have fun. Im sure there has to be room in pool for fun at all levels. I enjoy a good challenging game and that is fun to me but I don't find myself elated over it but Im at a different level than a beginner.

When exposing new people to the game if they see and experience the fun they might decide to come back.

Pool as you reference it, is not overtly fun and probably not fun at all for a beginner but elation is an emotion and if emotions are as powerful as you say it is.....there is plenty of emotion in fun.

That's what my research department says anyway. We have people working hard on the fun stuff and we think there is 100 percent chance of catching fly's with honey and not so many with vinegar. So lets use what works.

CJ Wiley · Jun 23, 2014

rarely will you hear adults describe their sports' emotional attachment as "fun".

336Robin said:
336Robin said:

So people don't know fun...ie ....elation? Maybe not toward Professional Sports, but I find myself wondering how people who are just beginning seem to laugh and joke and appear to be enjoying themselves....if this is not fun? what is it?

Click to expand...

Professional sports aren't popular because anyone's having "fun"...***...it's much deeper than that.....kids have "fun" - rarely will you hear adults describe their sports' emotional attachment as "fun".

***
Full Definition of FUN

1
: what provides amusement or enjoyment; specifically : playful often boisterous action or speech <full of fun>
2
: a mood for finding or making amusement <all in fun>
3
a : amusement, enjoyment <sickness takes all the fun out of life>
b : derisive jest : sport, ridicule <a figure of fun>
4
: violent or excited activity or argument
See fun defined for English-language learners »
See fun defined for kids »

CJ Wiley · Jun 23, 2014

The reality is pool rooms go out of business because of .......

The reality is pool rooms run off customers because of inexperienced management, subpar service, lack luster advertising, unsophisticated marketing, poor policies and procedures and somehow it's okay to allow attractive women to be run off by rude, offensive, inappropriate language and behavior by their nitty "regulars".

This pattern is not apparent in successful billiard businesses, it is in the ones that close down. 'The Game is the Teacher'

[QUOTE]I tend to like to deal with reality. The one that should be dealt with when looking for new customers. You need customers in order to keep pool places in business. Some end up players and some don't. I think that is an acceptable loss because pool wins every time. Just for the record I will remain positive on the future and everything looks great!!! I just can't wait for it happen....Oh when the Saints come marching in....[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

336Robin · Jun 23, 2014

Putting in the home town room

In this area we don't have the small home town rooms we used to so a pool room is a half hour drive or more. So when the death cycle is complete...there will be nothing for over an hour one way to next room. Its going to be ugly.

I have often wondered if there were a way to reignite the local rooms sort of as an extension of the Senior Center.

If someone could put in a room on say 25k using used tables and it could pay the rent as a hangout for the old folks that I thought would be worth it and a place where schools could come in for time during the day without alcohol....but could it pay the rent?

buckshotshoey · Jun 23, 2014

336Robin said:
In this area we don't have the small home town rooms we used to so a pool room is a half hour drive or more. So when the death cycle is complete...there will be nothing for over an hour one way to next room. Its going to be ugly.

I have often wondered if there were a way to reignite the local rooms sort of as an extension of the Senior Center.

If someone could put in a room on say 25k using used tables and it could pay the rent as a hangout for the old folks that I thought would be worth it and a place where schools could come in for time during the day without alcohol....but could it pay the rent?

I've been following along.....haven't had anything positive to say. But what about a European solution? Private pocket billiard clubs are said to be the norm in Europe. Expenses paid by club mmembership. Just size it for your area so it is sustainable?
I would pay for good equipment. Private membership eliminates several problems.

336Robin · Jun 23, 2014

Private Club

buckshotshoey said:
I've been following along.....haven't had anything positive to say. But what about a European solution? Private pocket billiard clubs are said to be the norm in Europe. Expenses paid by club mmembership. Just size it for your area so it is sustainable?
I would pay for good equipment. Private membership eliminates several problems.

I understand and yes I think a European solution would be nice and sort of goes along with a previous post of mine. Its not going to be a huge money maker. Were it to pay for the expenses it would be a wonderful thing but thats what it would likely be and nothing more.

If that type of solution would work, then the door is open for the scholastic programs mentioned. At the rate that we are losing Sports Bar because of whatever reason, the pool team concept is going to be hurting and either they would have to pay something to play or build their own.

Its something Ive alway thought could be made to work, if it were done right but if someone needs to make a living off of it ...I dont know and I dont think anyone will until its done and someone trys to keep with the theme and do it right.

buckshotshoey · Jun 23, 2014

I have a vision of something along the lines of a Moose lodge, Elks, Eagles, Am Vets, etc,..... but dedicated to billiards. An city with 100000 plus population should be able to have a 10 table facility, and have enough membership base to sustain itself. Wish I had the money to start one.

336Robin · Jun 23, 2014

Small Like you Said

buckshotshoey said:
I have a vision of something along the lines of a Moose lodge, Elks, Eagles, Am Vets, etc,..... but dedicated to billiards. An city with 100000 plus population should be able to have a 10 table facility, and have enough membership base to sustain itself. Wish I had the money to start one.

I think you said sort of gear it towards your population and I think that's wise.

I could see something like that working on sort of a Key Club type of thing. Where there were rules governing use and maybe an online calendar for members to see who is going and when.

I think it would be possible to heat and cool it using portable stuff so the heat and air weren't running all the time and it would have to be a room, just a room that were affordable...nothing fancy.....a few tables maybe 4.....refridgerator.....maybe computer, printer and possibly internet connection

if the room itself were heatable, cool able and affordable---you might get the local table mechanic to bring in some decent tables as he could find them and do it for 10k...then get a few decent house cues, balls, chalk, tip replacement tools a few chairs.

You might find 10 people who would cough up a grand a piece to put one in provided they get to get some of it back if it makes more than rent.

10 retirees who want something to do and have some money. It could be there hangout and they could invite friends

What would be fair rent for a room big enough for 4 tables?

Dunnn51 · Jun 24, 2014

60's Pool

Here's a link to a promotional that Brunswick di for pool in the 1960's. Not trying to sound sarcastic, but what has Diamond done like this in the past ten years ??

It has that "documentary" style to it that was classic 60's but it gets the point across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g0n2XP3IA

macguy · Jun 24, 2014

Dunnn51 said:
Here's a link to a promotional that Brunswick di for pool in the 1960's. Not trying to sound sarcastic, but what has Diamond done like this in the past ten years ??

It has that "documentary" style to it that was classic 60's but it gets the point across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g0n2XP3IA

That is great, that is exactly what pool looked like when started playing. Just watch a few minutes of the video and you want to go out and play. That is what I was talking about the family run pool rooms that were in like every city back in the 60's. The thing was, they were almost turn key operations. that Brunswick helped the owner set up. They even handled financing.

It was not a franchise but you did benefit from the promotion that Brunswick did. It could be done again today. There are a lot of guys on here that would love to be in the pool room business if they just had a road map and reasonable confidence of success. I watch that video and I want to open a pool room.

336Robin · Jun 24, 2014

Diamond contributions--A Lot.

Dunnn51 said:
Here's a link to a promotional that Brunswick di for pool in the 1960's. Not trying to sound sarcastic, but what has Diamond done like this in the past ten years ??

It has that "documentary" style to it that was classic 60's but it gets the point across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g0n2XP3IA

I will try to find the YouTube of Greg Sullivan at the Derby City talk about Diamond and what they have done to ensure a better playing table.

Not to mention the fact that they have made and stocked hundreds of tables that they have lent out to rent, ready to be shipped in a metal crate that can be rolled up to where the tables are to be set up and flipped so it hits the floor ready to go. I cant imagine the costs that it took to fund that project.

So while I do understand that Brunswick did a great thing here with the video and a plan I dont see that they couldnt do the same and I do know what they are currently doing and its been awesome for the industry. Can you imagine how solid that table frame has to be in order for a full 4 1/2 by 9 table can be flipped cloth on in place....plus hit the floor perfect and then just need some leveling? Thats real feat of technology every single bit of it, from the table frame, the one piece slate-- that would break if the frame gave---down to the rolling, shipping crate its sent in.

I cant say anything bad about Brunswick and wouldnt ever but I sure cant say Diamond has done anything but support the Industry with a huge, huge investment just so Billiards Across America can haul them to tournaments and provide a perfect playing surface. When those tables dont make them a dime until they are sold and they dont get as much for them as they do a new Table. So its almost a losing proposition for them. I dont know that they make anything on the rent, if they do I cant figure out how.

336Robin · Jun 24, 2014

Private Club Concept

I have always thought that the Private Club Concept

would work if presented to the Senior Community as something for them to do with their time and some of their money.

If the tables we made available to schools then there would be the learning environment needed for scholastic ventures and since no alcohol would be involved it would work much better.

It would take someone from a consulting firm who was getting paid to go around and talk to members of the Senior Centers and there is one in every town. or to the Moose Lodge, Elks, Masons Lodge etc to find the funding and set the desire in people to do it.

Billiard Products companies could donate balls, house cues, tip replacement tools etc to get it started and then sell them things as they need it.

Just dreaming here but if some company wanted to make an investment in the Seniors and kids in order to advertise their product to the community then if they would help with the funding some, they people who helped do it would probably buy them out once the thing got going and therefore the companies investment and expense for the advertisement of their brand would eventually be.......ZERO...

It would not have to be a Billiard Business to back it.

It could be Ford, GM, IBM, HP, someone that sold consumable goods that wanted a bigger footprint in peoples lives and know that people are going to remember the investment made with future purchases.

So I see this as something that could be done and would be done if someone got the right company involved for the sake of Seniors and Kids.

CJ Wiley · Jun 24, 2014

Brunswick has done a lot for pool through the years

Brunswick has done a lot for pool through the years.....Brunswick sponsored my TV events and treated me and all the pro players with respect and gratitude. I believe they still sponsor some of the more marketable players to this day.

Dunnn51 said:
Here's a link to a promotional that Brunswick di for pool in the 1960's. Not trying to sound sarcastic, but what has Diamond done like this in the past ten years ??

It has that "documentary" style to it that was classic 60's but it gets the point across.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3g0n2XP3IA

lost · Jun 24, 2014

CJ Wiley said:
Brunswick has done a lot for pool through the years.....Brunswick sponsored my TV events and treated me and all the pro players with respect and gratitude. I believe they still sponsor some of the more marketable players to this day.

I always played my pool "back in the day" on brunswick gold crown tables that they put into every bowling alley they built. In other words pool was an adjunct to their bowling business....and even their bowling business is a shell of it's former self. Somebody can fill me in but has it actually been spun off at this point?
A friend of mine from upstate New York would often see Irving Crane in his local Brunswick bowling alley practicing away by himself.
Then.....about 30 years ago my local bowling alley started to remove the Gold Crown tables one by one and replace them with fusball tables, and video games, and a few coin op Valley's....and then the bowling alleys themselves were bulldozed and replaced by condos, etc....It's hard, actually impossible to turn back the clock. We all have a favorite times in our lives,,,,doesn't mean it's somebody else's favorite..
Anyway...

The future of pool

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