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10-08-2019, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
We disagree.And SJM liked it, and he's pretty much right about everything, so..... What exactly do you want me to say? I stated my opinion... He stated his.

Get the f*ck off my d*ck, why don'tcha? It's getting a bit old. And you keep making yourself look more foolish. At some point you may reach a critical mass and implode under the gravity of your own self importance.
LOL. This is just too much.

For starters, I would like you to acknowledge how wrong you are about this:
"To be more analytical about it, at virtually every Fargorate range, there is a very specific skill that separates them from the next level."

For someone that has spent so much time arguing about Fargo Ratings, I'm amazed that you could be so wrong about this. I would love for our own Tin Man to chime in here and set you straight on what separates him from SVB, but you're more than welcome to keep your opinion.

The bit about the self-importance was cute. This is coming from the guy who jumped into the recent "Where's Fatboy" thread wondering if the poster was getting you two confused. There weren't. How's that for self-importance? I'll readily admit that if I were to leave AZ, I would miss this place way more than AZ would miss me. I'm fine with that.

Look, you're the only person I've ever put on ignore on this forum and I changed that because 90 percent of your posts are good stuff but the other 10 percent is pretty rough.

Lastly, the difference between us is -- you post on AZ to try and look smart, while I interact on here to try and get smarter.

Here's to hoping I don't implode.
  
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Pro Lady Player - 10-08-2019, 04:16 PM

First off, there is no governing body that controls whether someone can call themselves a pro or not. I have never played a pro event in my life but I was very much a professional pool player for months at a time on a few occasions. Every bit of my livelihood and the mortgages on two pieces of property came off of a pool table. To my mind you can't get more professional than pool being your sole source of income and you are doing OK.

The first I remember of ladies pool was in the early to mid-eighties. A friend of my ex joined the tour. She was a pro billiards player by definition, she was a member of the pro tour. She would have gotten chewed up gambling even with many of the lightweight bar room hustlers at the time.

Emily can call herself a pro player just like the lady from Guam did for years, may still. She looked good enough to be a major attraction but at least in her first years of playing as a pro all that can be said is that she sure was pretty!

Emily, whomever wants to, is welcome to call themselves a pro. I think that things got inflated a time or two before articles were published and especially to someone who isn't familiar with the pool scene her resume may seem a bit larger than it is. I doubt the top six ladies are making a living off of pool table earnings.

A chuckle, admittedly a bitter one: If the IRS audited the top US players, male or female, pool would fit the definition of a hobby for the vast majority of them. With pool being a hobby none of their pool related expenses, including travel and entry fees, would be deductible!

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10-08-2019, 04:17 PM

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Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
No. A rating gap of 25 points means the higher-rated player would win about 19% more games than the lower-rated player in the long run.

Here's the percentage more games the higher-rated player would win in the long run than the lower-rated player for rating gaps at 10-point intervals:

10 point rating gap -- 7.2% more games won by higher-rated player than lower-rated player
20 -- 14.9%
30 -- 23.1%
40 -- 32.0%
50 -- 41.4%
60 -- 51.6%
70 -- 62.5%
80 -- 74.1%
90 -- 86.5%
100 -- 100%
Thanks!

FYI, here are whole-number scores with those gaps.

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10-08-2019, 05:52 PM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
We disagree.And SJM liked it, and he's pretty much right about everything, so..... What exactly do you want me to say? I stated my opinion... He stated his.

Get the f*ck off my d*ck, why don'tcha? It's getting a bit old. And you keep making yourself look more foolish. At some point you may reach a critical mass and implode under the gravity of your own self importance.
I know you're being a bit facetious here, Russ, and I'll admit I laughed pretty hard.

To be fair, sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm wrong. My opinion is just like yours --- it's the opinion of somebody who knows and enjoys the pool scene. We both have much to draw on.

Perhaps I've seen all this through rose colored glasses because I'm so excited to see pool on TV in front of a pretty good size viewing audience. In truth, very little pool was played in this episode, and when it was, the focus was on the behavior and etiquette of the competitors and not on the quality of the play, which is practically beside the point. It showed the poolroom as a social gathering place where people can have fun while interacting with each other.

… but if we are to be honest here, this show has hit a nerve for more than a few of us, and I think that's OK, and those who've share why this is so have made it a much better thread.

In other threads on the forum over the years, we've all bemoaned the lack of a true definition of what a pro pool player is. We all would prefer that there was a well-defined, completely objective definition.

Some believes that pros are those that compete and succeed regularly in the top tour in their home country for their gender. Of course, maybe they are wrong. Others, with equal justification, feel it is a subjective but perceptible level of playing excellence. Pro speed, though not well defined, is something those who think this way know when they see it. Maybe they are right and maybe they are wrong.

In the major sports, a pro is somebody who derives their primary income from participation in their sport. As theoretically pleasing as that definition is, it probably means that there are almost no current women pool pros who are American-born and less than ten pro men who are American-born. It also means that some of our great players of the past were not pros, As an example, Irving Crane surely made more money selling Cadillacs, his year-round profession, than he made playing pool. Two time US Open 14.1 Champion Tom Jennings was a college math professor, and would have earned most of his living from teaching. Allen Hopkins surely made more money as an entrepreneur than as a pool player. Pool players earn such a small living, though, that I'm not sure that this definition of a pro really works in our sport, but maybe I'm wrong.

None of us really knows for sure what a pro is. and some of us justifiably want a definition in a sport where the lack of a true governing body in America makes it unlikely that a definition is coming any time soon.

Some of us enjoyed Emily's show as drama that made pool look fun. Many of us who enjoyed it still wonder whether the show's themes and messages were well-judged or accurate, and some were even offended by the implication that a woman in a poolroom is received differently than a man. The posters who saw things this way are entitled to their opinion.

Some of us hated the show, upset that a player they don't rate very highly was presented as a pro and having doubts about the objectivity in which the experiment contained was conducted. The posters who see things this way are entitled to their opinion.

Everyone that had a problem with the show and everyone who enjoyed it had a voice in this thread, and that's as it should be. With rare, if any exception, the countless knowledgeable AZB posters shone brightly in this thread.

Some of us were entertained, some of us were offended, and some of us were just puzzled, but we've all shared how we reacted to Emily's show and I think it has made for a pretty good AZB thread.

As for me, I plan to continue being right some of the time and wrong some of the time. It's not realistic to aim any higher than that.

Last edited by sjm; 10-08-2019 at 05:58 PM.
  
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Late to the party - 10-08-2019, 11:41 PM

Limited bandswidth and I just saw the video tonight. It wouldn't even try to play earlier.

The good thing, nice to see a pool hall without the fight scene starting thirty seconds later. The other good thing, the other good thing, the other good thing...

I think this was scripted start to finish including the "candid" part, or this is a relationship that Emily has built with the guys there. Then there are the black and white results, 100% each way! Not even the guys from the hood playing the klan would get 100% each way.

Been bringing girls and ladies in halls for fifty years and none were ever treated like this. A couple of friends were very attractive blondes and I sometimes had one or both with me. A few guys bowed to me in respect and envy but that was the closest thing to harassment. My niece rode to a city down the road with me to take care of some business and we stopped and played a little pool recently. Perfect situation for comments, dirty old man and a pretty young girl. Somewhere I am not particularly known either. Not a murmur.

Even with the touchy feely ending after the owner is shown the error of his ways I think I like the fight scenes better. I think a lot more people will realize they are fake than will realize this is.

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10-09-2019, 12:57 AM

This thread and some of the comments reminds me of my gear head buddies who watch some of the hot rod shows on TV. The can't just ignore the "faults" in the show and enjoy it for what it is. I don't think the average Bravo Viewer sees to far beyond the story lines and likely are enjoying the series. I only knew about this show because I got hooked on Below Deck Mediterranean and the rowdy MILF Housewife shows a while back

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10-09-2019, 03:42 AM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
I know you're being a bit facetious here, Russ, and I'll admit I laughed pretty hard.
Nope, was being serious. We may be politically at opposite poles, when it comes to pool, I have agreed with virtually everything you've ever posted about the state of men's pool, why we are falling behind the world, and your analysis of big matches, why the loser lost, and why the winner won. ESPECIALLY about matches Chohan is involved in. Everyone fawns over his creativity, but you and I are on the same page re: his lack of preshot routine, and how it affects his fundamentals.
  
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10-09-2019, 07:36 AM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
I am usually right there with you, but I vehemently disagree with pretty much everything here.

Being a "pro" in any sport/game means you make the MAJORITY of your income from that sport/game. If people are holding down a full time job and then playing the majors, and their winnings is less than their job, no matter how good they shoot, it's a hobby.

Where else does Emily work? She cashes in some events and she has sponsors. She competes with the woman pro's. MJ made more MONEY from sponsors than he ever did from basketball.

Furthermore, if they are crashing on someone's couch and eating someone else's food, they are not a "pro", they are a mooch. Absolutely no chance Emily Duddy earns enough at pool itself to support even a fraction of her bills. My assumption is, someone else is paying her bills. Playing pool on film doesn't count.

Sorry, this theory is up in smoke. Watch closely. Guys signed in the bottom rounds of the MLB draft sign for peanuts, assigned to their rookie leagues and possibly single A clubs. They make, on average, $1500 a month. And guess what, they have a program in Geneva, IL, home of the Kane County Cougars (A team) and you can "adopt" a cougar. That's right, you give a ball player a room in your home, feed him and even drive him to the games if needed. He's still a PRO, no matter how you slice it up. Correct?


To call a spade a spade, if we support mediocrity, then that is what we teach our youth to strive for. I am not sure if America has ONE female pool player making a legitimate living off of actually playing pool. Jeanette Lee does quite well in her career, and it arose out of pool, but it is not through career tourney winnings. She makes money because (in order of importance) she is a smoking hot Asian woman, she is very good at what she does, and she is well-spoken and classy.

Emily is out there teaching America what a bunch of male chauvinist pigs we all are.

I agree with Jeanette Lee, and where do you think Emily got the idea? As far as chauvinist pigs, sorry, they are treated differently in a pool hall and in life. Not by all, but by enough to be more than annoying. I mean, look at this thread. Because woman events don't pay enough, we have a bunch of men deciding they are not pro's.

Well, MLB minor leagues make even less, so what? I've NEVER heard a man, not one time in 50 years, say that a minor league baseball player is NOT a pro. Why is that exactly. C'mon, these are our wives, sisters, and daughters... why does it matter if someone wants to live their dream. Eventually the woman's league gets big again, but if woman quit now, what chance do future girls have at playing this great game of ours. Surely, there is room for both sexes in this sport without folks getting ruffled over this stuff, no? asking for a friend


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10-09-2019, 08:30 AM

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Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
.........................
Major league = Pro
Minor League = not really Pro

No chance in hell Emily makes $1,500/month playing in pro women's events.

Her Sex has nothing to do with her being a Pro player, Robb Saez is 36th FR for men and there is no world where he would be considered a Pro.

He could not make a living playing on a men's Pro tour period.

He would never be the favorite on the women's tour, FR would have him at 15th lol

Emily wouldn't be in the top 128(since that's what some large events are) so she is already statistically in last place if everybody else shows up.

Again, nothing to do with sex, she's just not Pro material no matter how much you want her to be.
  
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10-09-2019, 08:34 AM

I have no problem calling her an actor or model that plays pretty good pool. I dont think anybody here is saying she is terrible, I think we can all agree she plays pretty good.
  
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10-09-2019, 08:48 AM

Is she a pro or isn't she? That's really a semantics discussion focused on how one defines "pro". I don't find that discussion all that interesting. At some point though, professional tournaments will have minimum Fargo Rating requirements and at that point, we will all know who plays "pro speed" and who doesn't.

If those requirements were in place now I'm not sure if she would make the cut or not. I do know it's sort of a sad reflection on the state of the game that there's a chance she could make this hypothetical Fargo Rate cut.
  
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10-09-2019, 08:55 AM

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Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Nope, was being serious. We may be politically at opposite poles, when it comes to pool, I have agreed with virtually everything you've ever posted about the state of men's pool, why we are falling behind the world, and your analysis of big matches, why the loser lost, and why the winner won. ESPECIALLY about matches Chohan is involved in. Everyone fawns over his creativity, but you and I are on the same page re: his lack of preshot routine, and how it affects his fundamentals.
Wow, I'm almost embarrassed by your kind words, Russ, and I thank you for them. You bring a very informed and well-considered sense of things to this forum, too, and you know how to present your point of view with clarity. Like so many others on this superb forum, we delight in sharing our thoughts and views on many a pool related subject and stand prepared to deal with, and even enjoy dealing with, the inevitable dissenters.

All the best, Stu
  
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10-09-2019, 09:11 AM

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Originally Posted by jasonlaus View Post
Major league = Pro
Minor League = not really Pro

.
Well, it's tough arguing with someone that knows so little or at least can't admit when he's wrong.

A minor league player is a professional baseball player.

They are drafted by MLB teams, they sign contracts, they are paid. They jump when the MLB teams tells them too. You want to play short stop, too bad, the MLB teams says they need a center fielder and that's what you will become. And they are only paid for 5 months of the year, that's $7500 a year. And there are some minor league players drafted in the first round that make MILLIONS. Guess what, they are still PRO too.

I'll place another bet with you that Emily makes more than $7500 from pool and/or sponsors ?

Minor leaguers are pro players. That's a fact, and it's not in dispute. If you want to bet something on this, and I'm giving 100-1 odds, then put up a $1000 and come get you some. I'll back up what I say. Will you?

So, tell me more Professor about "pro's are pro's" only based on how much they are paid. That was shot down, and right quick.


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10-09-2019, 09:21 AM

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Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
Well, it's tough arguing with someone that knows so little or at least can't admit when he's wrong.

A minor league player is a professional baseball player.

They are drafted by MLB teams, they sign contracts, they are paid. They jump when the MLB teams tells them too. You want to play short stop, too bad, the MLB teams says they need a center fielder and that's what you will become. And they are only paid for 5 months of the year, that's $7500 a year. And there are some minor league players drafted in the first round that make MILLIONS. Guess what, they are still PRO too.

I'll place another bet with you that Emily makes more than $7500 from pool and/or sponsors ?

Minor leaguers are pro players. That's a fact, and it's not in dispute. If you want to bet something on this, and I'm giving 100-1 odds, then put up a $1000 and come get you some. I'll back up what I say. Will you?

So, tell me more Professor about "pro's are pro's" only based on how much they are paid. That was shot down, and right quick.
If they can live on 7,500/year then I guess they are "pros" lolol. If not, then it's a hobby that pays very little.

When did pool become baseball? Where are the minor leagues for pool? Who is paying Emily's salary?

Having sponsors does not make you a pro. Would she have "sponsors"(not even sure she does) if she didnt look like she does? A 6 or 7 is a 10 in the pool room.
  
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10-09-2019, 09:24 AM

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Originally Posted by ChicagoRJ View Post
Well, it's tough arguing with someone that knows so little or at least can't admit when he's wrong.

A minor league player is a professional baseball player.

They are drafted by MLB teams, they sign contracts, they are paid. They jump when the MLB teams tells them too. You want to play short stop, too bad, the MLB teams says they need a center fielder and that's what you will become. And they are only paid for 5 months of the year, that's $7500 a year. And there are some minor league players drafted in the first round that make MILLIONS. Guess what, they are still PRO too.

I'll place another bet with you that Emily makes more than $7500 from pool and/or sponsors ?

Minor leaguers are pro players. That's a fact, and it's not in dispute. If you want to bet something on this, and I'm giving 100-1 odds, then put up a $1000 and come get you some. I'll back up what I say. Will you?

So, tell me more Professor about "pro's are pro's" only based on how much they are paid. That was shot down, and right quick.
If you take out the sponsor, whatever that means, there is no way she takes home 7,500/year after expenses playing PROFESSIONAL pool.
  
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