Loree Jon Snooze.............

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
It seems rather simple to me - it is only a good match for the winner and not a good match for the player who just suffered a heartbreaking loss, so saying good match to them I feel is kind of an insult and kind of a selfish comment to make. Yes, it's fine to say at the completion of a well played match with few mistakes by both players, in which one player just plays better and deservingly wins out, or of course it's perfectly fine when the loser of the match says good match. But in the case of a match in which one player makes a crucial mistake or choke in the case game and suffers a painful loss, I just feel it shows more respect towards your opponent, on the part of the victor, to say nothing at all. I guess maybe that's just me and others here don't share that same opinion.

Chris, I think it all depends on the circumstances of the match and how both players are feeling when it's over. When I first started making money at pool (after years of losing!) I can remember players telling me how I got lucky to win, and I was offended they would say that to me after I felt that I had played good. It took me a long time to enjoy hearing players say that, and think that I won on luck. I learned to agree with them and tell them "yes" I had been very lucky! :cool:
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, the first thing you say is that the fault is with LJ because she was inattentive. We know that LJ didn't realize it was a foul, but we don't know whether or not JB knew it was a foul. If JB did not know it was a foul then she was also inattentive. Do you think that means that she is partly at fault in that case? If not, why is LJ's inattentiveness a problem, but not JB's?

I think the reason most people believe this situation is somehow a violation of ethics is because they think the fair outcome would be that JB be rightfully punished for her foul, and they think that means both players should be responsible for making sure the "fair" outcome is what takes place.

It's in our human nature to want things to be fair (as long as it doesn't go against our own self-interest that is). If someone gets a bad roll, we say they didn't deserve it. If a ball skids and causes a missed shot, that isn't fair either, but the game goes on.

In 8ball where you must call the 8, a player is shooting the 8, which is sitting in the pocket. The player makes the 8 without calling it. Everyone would agree that the player should have won the game, and it's not really fair they lost because of a technicality. Does that mean it was the other player's responsibility to act against their own self-interest and intervene to make sure the shooter calls the 8-ball, so that the game itself is "fair"? Of course not. The fault lies with the player who failed to call their shot, even though they knew it was part of the rules.

The same logic applies to this situation. Both players saw the same shot happen. It is not JB's responsibility to make sure the "fair" outcome happens. Nothing in the rules says that just because a foul occurred, ball in hand must take place. The player has a right to take ball in hand, but if they make a mistake by not recognizing that the shot they just saw was a foul, how is there an obligation on anyone else to correct that mistake? It's their fault and no one else's.

The second thing you say is that "She didn't lie, or prevent Loree Jon from taking ball in hand." Well, if she did know it was a foul, and didn't say anything, then she certainly did prevent LJ from taking ball in hand, since LJ did not know it was a foul, and had JB told her it was a foul, then she would have taken ball in hand. Not telling your opponent that you fouled, when you know you fouled and it's clear that your opponent does not know that you fouled, is a kind of lie of omission.

That's like saying if a player gets up and shoots the 2 ball when the 1 ball is still on the table, the other player prevented them from shooting the 1 because they didn't let their opponent know they were on the 1 ball. The foul was obvious to everyone in the room. If Loree Jon watches the shot that was clearly a foul and fails to recognize it's a foul, that's her fault, just as if she were to step to the table and fail to recognize that the 1 is on the table, so she shoots the 2. JB has no responsibility in this situation, unless the rules clearly state otherwise.

On the other hand, if she didn't know that she fouled, then I contend that she should have known, especially given the fact that she was the only one at the table.

She was the only one at the table? Loree Jon was right next to the table watching the shot. Loree Jon could see the balls rolling after contact just as well as JB. So you are making my case for me. You should contend that Loree Jon should have known it was a foul, and since she is the one who stands to benefit from taking ball in hand, and she is the one physically responsible for picking the ball up, it's her fault that ball in hand didn't take place. It's not JB's responsibility to step in at that point.

To see why, imagine the same situation, but one in which the cueball is coming to a stop just as it gets near the cushion. In that case it may be impossible for your opponent to know whether or not the cueball reached the cushion, because they weren't close enough to see it. Without a referee, the shooter is the only one in a position to say whether or not it is a foul. If I understand your view, though, if the cueball did not actually reach the cushion then the shooter has no ethical obligation to tell their opponent that they fouled. Is that right?

First of all, the shooting player is not necessarily going to be able to see whether or not the cue ball hit the rail any easier than people watching next to the table. If the shooter happens to be standing at the rail in which it takes place, then yes, maybe.

Secondly, the player sitting down next to the table can at least see that it's a close call whether the cue ball hit the rail or not, so they should ask the shooting player if it was a foul. The shooting player has a responsibility to be honest, but they don't have a responsibility to intervene with their opponent's turn at the table to make sure their opponent knows they have a right to ball in hand.
 
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railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would disagree that there's no issue if she didn't realize she had fouled. When there's no referee I think the player at the table has a responsibility to know whether she has fouled or not, especially in an obvious case.

If you're in a major tournament kicking at a ball in a hill-hill elimination match, and there's no referee, you have to make sure that you make a legal shot. If you commit a foul and your opponent does not realize this, you have a responsibility to let your opponent know.

This is nonsense... Please explain why the player at the table has any responsibility to call a foul on themselves. I understand why people want it to be this way, so all is fair in the world, but it really is just a made up opinion with no factual basis in reality.

JB's responsibility is to sit down because a foul means it's the end of her turn, whether she made a ball or not. There is absolutely no responsibility on her part to make sure her opponent follows through with ball in hand, unless it's explicitly stated in the rules.

Just because the consequence of a foul is that the other player has the right to ball in hand, does not mean either of the players is responsible for calling out that a foul occurred. Since it's in Loree Jon's best interest that the foul be called, it's her responsibility to either call the foul and take ball in hand, or confirm with JB as to whether it was a foul or not. If she fails to do so, then she doesn't get ball in hand. Life goes on, and she only has herself to blame.

Not paying attention does not relieve you of that responsibility.

Exactly right. Not knowing you have ball in hand because you weren't paying attention to your own match means that you deserve to be punished for that mistake.
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep, I think we have all encountered this kind of people. If we haven't, we will. Get over artists that might not cheat but they will crowd the limits! If I give up ball in hand and the other player isn't around for a minute I usually find a place the cue ball will sit on the rail. I sometimes get distracted myself and don't want there to be any doubt. This keeps someone from having to search around for the cue ball.

Hu

I understand that most people are used to a certain kind of etiquette in pool, so it's easy to stretch that to the point that when someone doesn't do what you're accustomed to, they are cheating.But honestly, I don't know where people are getting this notion that a foul must be called by the shooting player, and that the opponent has no responsibility in calling fouls or asking if a shot was a foul. As soon as a foul occurs, the shooting player is required to end their turn at the table, stop shooting. That's it... It's then up to the player that benefits from ball in hand to make sure they get ball in hand when a foul occurs. Nowhere, in any rules that I know of, is there any requirement for the shooter to hand them the cue ball, or tell them it's a foul, unless they are directly asked if it was a foul.

Expect people to act in their self-interest at the table. That doesn't mean expect that they are going to lie or cheat, but don't expect them to be overly polite and go out of their way to help you. You need to pay attention to your opponent's shots and act in your self-interest.
 
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railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is so patently silly.

If it was a foul and the shooter knew it they have already cheated by the time you have to ask.

Never saw a cheater yet that wasn't also a liar.

JC

What's silly is how you think that automatically, if you don't say "HEY I JUST FOULED", that constituted cheating. Cheating is fouling and then continuing to shoot, or fouling and then when someone calls you out on it, you lie and say it wasn't a foul.

If you foul and simply sit down because your turn is over, that is not cheating. It's your opinion that the shooter should explicitly call fouls on themselves, that doesn't make it a fact, and it clearly is not in the rules. It's silly to not put any responsibility on the player who benefits from ball in hand to make sure they get ball in hand.
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It means that in a situation like JB's even if she wasn't aware that she had fouled I think she was still responsible for knowing that she had fouled.

If a cop pulls you over for speeding and you say, "I didn't know I was speeding," that doesn't get you off the hook.

Anyway, I'm tired of explaining things to you so don't bother responding.

It's an explicit rule that you are required to obey the speed limit. I still don't understand where you and others are getting the notion that there is some rule stating it's the shooter's responsibility to know about their fouls and call fouls on themselves. There simply isn't any rule that says this. It's purely your opinion on how things should work. That's it. It has no basis in reality.
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Somehow I can't find a huge difference between a shooter ignoring obvious fouls in a match that isn't officiated and flat out lying and saying it wasn't a foul. If you said not exactly the same I might agree, huge difference? No.

The shooter is not ignoring the foul. The shooter sits down when a foul occurs because it is the end of their turn. The point of contention is who's responsibility is it to make sure the other player gets ball in hand because of the foul. Just because you think it's fair that the player gets ball in hand, doesn't mean the shooter is somehow cheating just because they don't step in and say "a foul occurred".

In the absence of any rule saying who is responsible, then it stands to reason that the players will act in their self-interest, and that if a player wants to be rewarded with ball in hand when the other player fouls, they need to pay attention and call the foul, or ask the player when it's a close call.

The fact that you can't discern the huge difference in lying about a foul versus expecting the other player to take responsibility for claiming their ball in hand, is quite troubling. If we can't agree on that simple concept, there's no use in continuing a dialog here.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The shooter is not ignoring the foul. The shooter sits down when a foul occurs because it is the end of their turn. The point of contention is who's responsibility is it to make sure the other player gets ball in hand because of the foul. Just because you think it's fair that the player gets ball in hand, doesn't mean the shooter is somehow cheating just because they don't step in and say "a foul occurred".

In the absence of any rule saying who is responsible, then it stands to reason that the players will act in their self-interest, and that if a player wants to be rewarded with ball in hand when the other player fouls, they need to pay attention and call the foul, or ask the player when it's a close call.

The fact that you can't discern the huge difference in lying about a foul versus expecting the other player to take responsibility for claiming their ball in hand, is quite troubling. If we can't agree on that simple concept, there's no use in continuing a dialog here.
You have driven home the same point saying the same thing now for 6 consecutive posts - we clearly know how you feel now on this topic - no need to continue.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
The shooter is not ignoring the foul. The shooter sits down when a foul occurs because it is the end of their turn. The point of contention is who's responsibility is it to make sure the other player gets ball in hand because of the foul. Just because you think it's fair that the player gets ball in hand, doesn't mean the shooter is somehow cheating just because they don't step in and say "a foul occurred".

In the absence of any rule saying who is responsible, then it stands to reason that the players will act in their self-interest, and that if a player wants to be rewarded with ball in hand when the other player fouls, they need to pay attention and call the foul, or ask the player when it's a close call.

The fact that you can't discern the huge difference in lying about a foul versus expecting the other player to take responsibility for claiming their ball in hand, is quite troubling. If we can't agree on that simple concept, there's no use in continuing a dialog here.



So, you are saying you are fine with me standing at the table in the best position to observe any foul every time you shoot ?

Hu
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't play people I have to stand over

Absolutely I am okay with it. Get as close as you wish ...I don't rattle.
PUH-LEEZE use your cell phone to also record each and every shot you get a little edgy about ....I will accept whatever it reveals.
Anything to prevent any whining or moaning about this or that.
Just be prepared for me to do the same thing if I choose to do so.
That way we can all be friends and gamble away to our heart's content.
OR pay money to a top flight referee (no beginners, loafers, boozers, or grinning know-it-all pool room detectives) to be on the spot and avoid this crud.
That lady Michaela Tabb is first rate...pay her some good money and she'll show up.
And that's the name of that tune.



Except in rare tournaments I don't play people I have to stand over which was my point from my very first post on. Much easier for two people to call their own fouls. I don't bother playing people that don't. Comes of playing in one pool hall most of the time. Only a few semi-regulars won't call their own fouls, I don't play them. Strangers, I play occasionally. If I have to stand over them I only play them once.

You used the term self interest, it is in all of our self interest to call our own fouls. It expedites the game.

Hu
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Except in rare tournaments I don't play people I have to stand over which was my point from my very first post on. Much easier for two people to call their own fouls. I don't bother playing people that don't. Comes of playing in one pool hall most of the time. Only a few semi-regulars won't call their own fouls, I don't play them. Strangers, I play occasionally. If I have to stand over them I only play them once.

You used the term self interest, it is in all of our self interest to call our own fouls. It expedites the game.

Hu

Exactly
Life too short to play with assholes.
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You have driven home the same point saying the same thing now for 6 consecutive posts - we clearly know how you feel now on this topic - no need to continue.

Unfortunately, all of the nonsense in this thread requires pretty much the same response, and I didn't want to be rude and not reply to some people, hence the multiple posts with the same obvious logic.
 

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, you are saying you are fine with me standing at the table in the best position to observe any foul every time you shoot ?

Hu

Why do I have to keep repeating myself with you? No, you watch from the sidelines, and when a shot happens that could have been a foul but you couldn't see it well enough to be sure, you ask your opponent if it was a foul.

You keep saying it's easier to just have the shooter call fouls, but you can't seem to wrap your head around the obvious issue that a rule like that is not enforceable, and on top of that, you want to just trust your opponent to voluntarily and 100% honestly make calls that aren't in their self-interest.

It's the above problem that makes it necessary for the person who stands to benefit from the foul to take responsibility for keeping the shooter honest and making sure the foul gets called.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why do I have to keep repeating myself with you? No, you watch from the sidelines, and when a shot happens that could have been a foul but you couldn't see it well enough to be sure, you ask your opponent if it was a foul.

You keep saying it's easier to just have the shooter call fouls, but you can't seem to wrap your head around the obvious issue that a rule like that is not enforceable, and on top of that, you want to just trust your opponent to voluntarily and 100% honestly make calls that aren't in their self-interest.

It's the above problem that makes it necessary for the person who stands to benefit from the foul to take responsibility for keeping the shooter honest and making sure the foul gets called.

You're suggesting there's an either/or situation: Either the sitting player or the shooting player should watch and call fouls. You're saying that the sitting player should call fouls, and disagreeing with people who - you claim - are saying the shooter should call fouls.

But no one has said the sitting player shouldn't watch or call any fouls. Of course both players should be aware of what's going on as best as possible. And sometimes one or the other player will miss a call because they're human. The sitter is more likely to miss it because it's poor etiquette to get too close to the table when the other player is shooting.

The only question here is whether the shooter should call a foul they know they committed, when the sitting player missed it. You are saying the shouldn't. That's it, that's all you're saying. But by any definition, not calling a foul that your opponent missed is dishonesty and poor sportsmanship. You claim you're advocating that the sitting player pay attention, but everyone agrees with that. No one is saying the sitter shouldn't pay attention at all. It's only about this one narrow issue of what to do when you know you fouled but your opponent missed it. One side says "show honesty and good sportsmanship" and the other side says "nah."

---

Since this came up earlier, there are some rules that do require players to call fouls on themselves. The APA league rules, p. 5, states:

Call your own fouls – don’t wait to be asked if you committed a foul. Players with integrity call their own fouls and tell their opponent when they have ball-in-hand or hand them the cue ball.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
should the rams player have told the ref he committed a foul on the n.o. saints player?
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
self interest

Why do I have to keep repeating myself with you? No, you watch from the sidelines, and when a shot happens that could have been a foul but you couldn't see it well enough to be sure, you ask your opponent if it was a foul.

You keep saying it's easier to just have the shooter call fouls, but you can't seem to wrap your head around the obvious issue that a rule like that is not enforceable, and on top of that, you want to just trust your opponent to voluntarily and 100% honestly make calls that aren't in their self-interest.

It's the above problem that makes it necessary for the person who stands to benefit from the foul to take responsibility for keeping the shooter honest and making sure the foul gets called.



It is very much in everyone's self interest to call their own fouls. A player can foul on any shot and if I am forced to be the referee I behave as one. That means seeing every shot clearly regardless of what is required to do that.

The vast majority of people I play call their own fouls even if they don't normally do so when they realize I am calling mine that they don't see. Courtesy outweighs the rulebook.

If you do a search you will find that I have said many times that pool is a gentleman's, and ladies, game. It doesn't work any other way. For example, when the players can't come to an agreement about an incident the shooter gets the final word. Over the years I have had a handful of people that plainly fouled and definitely knew they fouled use this rule of play to get away with the foul. Not a problem. I walk away without another word. When it is my turn to shoot I start firing my balls into the holes. Without fail, the other person becomes unglued. Something about having to use the cue ball. I remind them the shooter's word is the final say-so and I am now the shooter.

Even if I do nothing else, it is amazing how paranoid a player who is used to getting over any way they can gets when they realize I am playing shape on most of my shots so my ass is in their face when they try to see the table from their chair. The player that wanted me to stay in my chair while they flagrantly fouled is now bouncing out of their chair like a jumping bean!

Hu
 
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