Thank you for your reply.
The Death Grip
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
Sure, and I hope you noted the word 'potential.' It's different from 'ability' in case you find that 90 percent figure disturbing, but I'm positive about it. There are so many things you can't potentially do with a death grip. You can't let your stroke out. (Once you've done it, you'll wonder how you ever played without it.) You can't finesse shots with a death grip.
Yes, you can spin balls, but it's not even one iota close to how you can spin them when your hand and arm are relaxed. (Efren is a great example.)You will tire sooner with a death grip and you can wind up with arm, back,or neck pain from the tension.
However, there are definitely uses for a tight grip. I grab the cue tightly at impact on hard break shots. I have to, even with a rubber grip on my break cue or the cue will fly out of my hands. It's happened. I like a tighter grip when the cb is frozen to the rail and you have to shoot off the rail.
I use about as little grip pressure/tension as will allow my hand to accelerate the cue forward.
For shots where the CB rolls less than 6 diamonds, the cue is held by gravity in my curled fingers with the joint of the thumb lightly caressing the cue from the side. as power is dialed up, the thumb applies more and more side pressure, but the fingers stay the same. Adding side pressure with the thumb does not add tension to the wrist like adding more grip with the fingers.
For shots where the CB rolls less than 6 diamonds, the cue is held by gravity in my curled fingers with the joint of the thumb lightly caressing the cue from the side. as power is dialed up, the thumb applies more and more side pressure, but the fingers stay the same. Adding side pressure with the thumb does not add tension to the wrist like adding more grip with the fingers.
Too bad I have to burst your bubble, but there are lots of great players out there (not me, of course, because I am just no good at playing) who will disagree with you. Perhaps you just don't realize how big this world really is. But, that's okay too. You've got a living to make...it's all good.
Everyone has their opinions and procedures about this game...especially instructors.
Life's like that. Happy Trails!
Out of all Azbilliards instructors, I respect you and David Sapolis the most. However I do disagree with you on this matter.
I disagree because I've played both ways. I don't seem to play rotation any worse, and my shotmaking is improved a lot by a tighter grip. As for punching the ball, that is not really an option on the cloth I play on (760 Simonis). You can hardly touch the ball. So there is a lot of rolling, wether one likes it or not. However I do prefer to use below center striking, regardless of cloth or game (snooker, Chinese 8 ball, Blackball and US Pool).
Also I do tend to strike firmly when I can, for accuracy reasons, but like I said, it's not always possible under the conditions. If that is what you mean, then I concede that point. I will however point out that the motion of the cue is for the most part smooth, and not at all a poke or jerk, though it's a work in progress, like most peoples strokes.
Subjects like these are hard to discuss, because my definiton of "death grip" may be different than yours. I've seen people call it a death grip, simply because all fingers are on the cue. Some people have the cue loosely flopping around in their hand, so they aren't really gripping it at all, barely holding it even.
I think the negative aspects of the firm grip start when you completely lock down the wrists ability to move forwards and backwards (or nearly so). Firm grips in general, IMO, will necessitate some elbow drop in order to work properly, and the firmer the grip, the more apparent this will become. Earl Strickland and CJ Wiley both drop their elbows and grip the cue firmly, and there seems to be a correlation between the grip firmness and elbow dropping in general. However I don't think Earl for instance is at the point where he's completely locking his wrist in that manner, though I can't speak for him, obviously. Neither am I locking my wrist in the forward/backward direction as that would need so much tension as to possibly cause injuries and fatigue, and my elbow does not drop a whole lot, either. So it's not an either/or proposition.
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Ugh. Now your starting to sound hostile. That's not nice. I'm just presenting my opinion. I was a professional player for about 30 years who also happens to be an instructor. So you're going to hold the teaching part against me? How silly. I don't make a living teaching pool. I don't need to drum up business. You will never see me on here soliciting lessons like some people do.
Why not post a list of those death grip pros. I'd love to study them. Maybe there's something I can learn. I'm always up for learning.
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No, I don't think so. I know Thorsten pretty well. When players use a full fist on the cue, it can sometimes look like they're gripping tightly, but they're not.
Willie Hoppe
Now I realize that the man played a different game in a different era but he was a world champion for around 50 years.
Willie had the loosest grip that I have ever seen. It is easy to see in many of the videos that I have watched, it seems he knew how to let the cue do the work.
There is a couple of cool tricks that Willie does at 2:09 in this video and a decent shot of his super loose grip at 2:33.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBUGz7k0IqM
Now I realize that the man played a different game in a different era but he was a world champion for around 50 years.
Willie had the loosest grip that I have ever seen. It is easy to see in many of the videos that I have watched, it seems he knew how to let the cue do the work.
There is a couple of cool tricks that Willie does at 2:09 in this video and a decent shot of his super loose grip at 2:33.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBUGz7k0IqM
I use what I would call a "firm" grip, but not a "death grip". I also use all four fingers and my thumb to grip the cue. I'm not one of those "light grip" people who flick the cue while it rests on two fingers. After playing for over 50 years, I think this is the grip that works the best for me.
I have never played where I thought I had a "loose" grip.
On a scale of 1 being super loose and 10 being a death grip, I would say I'm around a 5, or so.
I have more control with a firm grip.
I think everyone will hold the cue "looser" or "tighter" on some shots, but I like to keep everything the "same", if I can. The less I have to worry about, the better I play.
I can "finesse" the ball with my "firm" grip and I can "muscle" the ball with my firm grip. It isn't as "restrictive" as some people make it out to be, at least for me, that is.
I've ran thousands and thousands of racks, using my grip, and I don't think going to a "lighter" grip would have added many more.
I have never played where I thought I had a "loose" grip.
On a scale of 1 being super loose and 10 being a death grip, I would say I'm around a 5, or so.
I have more control with a firm grip.
I think everyone will hold the cue "looser" or "tighter" on some shots, but I like to keep everything the "same", if I can. The less I have to worry about, the better I play.
I can "finesse" the ball with my "firm" grip and I can "muscle" the ball with my firm grip. It isn't as "restrictive" as some people make it out to be, at least for me, that is.
I've ran thousands and thousands of racks, using my grip, and I don't think going to a "lighter" grip would have added many more.
I'm not sure what snooker instructional material you read/saw but those that featured Gareth Potts and Ronnie O'Sullivan said the following:
Step 1: You hold the cue "normally" at starting position
Step 2: While pulling back the cue, loosen your grip. Two ways of doing it:
1. slowly releasing the little and/or ring finger (back release). This is the Gareth Potts way.
2. slowly releasing the index and/or middle finder (front release). This is the Ronnie O'Sullivan way.
Step 3: Stroke forward while tightening the grip again. The amount of power in the stroke depends on how much and how fast you loosen/tighten the grip.
Loosening and tightening your grip quickly creates a very fast acceleration.
Ronnie Alcano skips step 1, he starts loose from the beginning, but when needing power, he tightens his grip very fast during the forward stroke.
This way of using grip pressure to control power helps you deliver relatively the same stroke all the time. With exactly the same stroke, you can draw the ball 5 inches while dead-gripping and you can also draw the ball 30 inches if you loosen your grip and tighten it quickly to create acceleration. That's how snooker player plays.
I totally agree with the self-experimental way of playing, only you know what's best for you.
Step 1: You hold the cue "normally" at starting position
Step 2: While pulling back the cue, loosen your grip. Two ways of doing it:
1. slowly releasing the little and/or ring finger (back release). This is the Gareth Potts way.
2. slowly releasing the index and/or middle finder (front release). This is the Ronnie O'Sullivan way.
Step 3: Stroke forward while tightening the grip again. The amount of power in the stroke depends on how much and how fast you loosen/tighten the grip.
Loosening and tightening your grip quickly creates a very fast acceleration.
Ronnie Alcano skips step 1, he starts loose from the beginning, but when needing power, he tightens his grip very fast during the forward stroke.
This way of using grip pressure to control power helps you deliver relatively the same stroke all the time. With exactly the same stroke, you can draw the ball 5 inches while dead-gripping and you can also draw the ball 30 inches if you loosen your grip and tighten it quickly to create acceleration. That's how snooker player plays.
I totally agree with the self-experimental way of playing, only you know what's best for you.
I don't know why it is, but whenever I challenge an instructor on something, they start with the "you're sounding hostile stuff".
You played pool professionally for 30 years? Good for you. I hope you made a lot of money.
I've played pool for money for 70 years and I'm a terrible player, scared of everyone, I am a first class nit, the world's worst shot maker and position player, have no nerves, and I dog it in the clutch...that's my resume. Not so hot, I guess..
As for good players who use a firm grip, there are some posting on here in this very thread now who advocate the firm grip. I personally have only known a few in my life...Billy Johnson, Joe Cosgrove, and Jimmy Rempe come to mind. So I'm really nobody, unworthy of your attention....but those three guys did hit the balls pretty good.
Happy trails to you.
Yessir...that's what it's all about! Go man Go!!
:thumbup:
Let's define terms. The OP and others can say on a scale of 1 to 10 how firmly they're gripping. What some think of as loose may be a tight grip or vice versa.
That's because you were being hostile towards her and it was quite obvious. Your first sentence says it all "When ever I challenge an instructor". Why do you need to challenge anyone ? She gave her opinion... if you still want to shoot at an APA 4 level, nobody is stopping you. Fran is trying to get folks to think how to improve, and not "well, this guy does this"....well, you're not that guy.
Sure, folks can do it the wrong way, and it's OK. Albert Bell was a terrific baseball hitter... but his mechanics were terrible, his hands came forward during the pitch, and then he pulled his hands back again. Nobody, and I mean nobody would teach that to anyone. But he was so talented to overcome this "mechanical flaw" the rest, including other pro's, would never think about doing it.
So, I guess, she and others should just say " in general, it's not a good idea to play your best with a death grip, but, if you like your death grip you can keep your death grip" And yes, I'm sure there is some pro, somewhere, that plays with one. So what... you're not a pro and he developed his grip over a few decade to hit top speed.
So, lighten up Francis
How tight? Tighter than letting the cue drop into your fingers? I agree!
That's because you were being hostile towards her and it was quite obvious. Your first sentence says it all "When ever I challenge an instructor". Why do you need to challenge anyone ? She gave her opinion... if you still want to shoot at an APA 4 level, nobody is stopping you. Fran is trying to get folks to think how to improve, and not "well, this guy does this"....well, you're not that guy.
Sure, folks can do it the wrong way, and it's OK. Albert Bell was a terrific baseball hitter... but his mechanics were terrible, his hands came forward during the pitch, and then he pulled his hands back again. Nobody, and I mean nobody would teach that to anyone. But he was so talented to overcome this "mechanical flaw" the rest, including other pro's, would never think about doing it.
So, I guess, she and others should just say " in general, it's not a good idea to play your best with a death grip, but, if you like your death grip you can keep your death grip" And yes, I'm sure there is some pro, somewhere, that plays with one. So what... you're not a pro and he developed his grip over a few decade to hit top speed.
So, lighten up Francis
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NO, Frances........YOU lighten up.That's because you were being hostile towards her and it was quite obvious. Your first sentence says it all "When ever I challenge an instructor". Why do you need to challenge anyone ? <===practice what you preach, bub. She gave her opinion... if you still want to shoot at an APA 4 level, nobody is stopping you. Fran is trying to get folks to think how to improve, and not "well, this guy does this"....well, you're not that guy.
Sure, folks can do it the wrong way, and it's OK. Albert Bell was a terrific baseball hitter... but his mechanics were terrible, his hands came forward during the pitch, and then he pulled his hands back again. Nobody, and I mean nobody would teach that to anyone. But he was so talented to overcome this "mechanical flaw" the rest, including other pro's, would never think about doing it. <===WRONG! Cobb invented it.
So, I guess, she and others should just say " in general, it's not a good idea to play your best with a death grip, but, if you like your death grip you can keep your death grip" And yes, I'm sure there is some pro, somewhere, that plays with one. So what... you're not a pro and he developed his grip over a few decade to hit top speed.
So, lighten up Francis
It's none of your business.
:kma:
That's because you were being hostile towards her and it was quite obvious. Your first sentence says it all "When ever I challenge an instructor". Why do you need to challenge anyone ? She gave her opinion... if you still want to shoot at an APA 4 level, nobody is stopping you. Fran is trying to get folks to think how to improve, and not "well, this guy does this"....well, you're not that guy.
Sure, folks can do it the wrong way, and it's OK. Albert Bell was a terrific baseball hitter... but his mechanics were terrible, his hands came forward during the pitch, and then he pulled his hands back again. Nobody, and I mean nobody would teach that to anyone. But he was so talented to overcome this "mechanical flaw" the rest, including other pro's, would never think about doing it.
So, I guess, she and others should just say " in general, it's not a good idea to play your best with a death grip, but, if you like your death grip you can keep your death grip" And yes, I'm sure there is some pro, somewhere, that plays with one. So what... you're not a pro and he developed his grip over a few decade to hit top speed.
So, lighten up Francis
Thank you! Of course he was being hostile.
Suddenly the tone of the thread is now changing from death grip to tighter grip. That's very different than the way it started.
I use many different grip pressures when I play, depending on the shot -- more on the looser side, less on the tighter side. Most of the time it naturally happens. But when you're death-gripping, you will never fall into the zone.
I'm still waiting for the list of pros who play with a death grip. --- Not firmer grip --- death grip.