BCA Sandbag Q's??? Mark?? Anybody?

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Here's the layout. I play on a 5-man team in a BCAPL 8-ball league. We have the 8-point handicap system, meaning you get a point per ball and no bonus for winning the game. It's screwed up but that's not my issue. The issue is that my team has been accused of sandbagging.

We do go to Vegas every May to compete in nationals. We get our asses handed to us, too. I can run out with a high consistency. Two of the matches last season I ran every rack, leaving my opponents no shot the entire night. I run 4-5-6 packs of bar box 8-ball fairly commonly. I can play that game. However, I get crushed in Vegas. My safety game is lousy and getting out of safes is lousy. Play me safe & you'll destroy me. That's an issue in my game I want to fix, as does my other teammates. We want to be competitive at national level & feel our offense is good but defense is equally & oppositely bad. This season we decided we'd practice safety play for an entire season leading up to nationals. As incentive, we agreed to make an ante pot that we all put money in when somebody pulls off a lock, BIH safety. It's like $.25, not green cash. Nothing big but at the end of the season will be 40-50 bucks that we can put down & buy ourselves a round of drinks in Vegas. That's the scenario.

Last night there was a captain's meeting called because a few people in the league think we are sandbagging because we play safeties when there's open shots, and play too many of them. One of the officers even called the BCA to ask for advice on how to handle us. She was allegedly told to boot us from the league or give us all 8-handicaps. WTF? Really? Exactly what do we have to gain by sandbagging? There is absolutely no gain from it. We're practicing safety play so we can compete better at national level. They even accused us of gambling (the ante pot). What's going on here? Why are we being punished for trying to learn to be better players? Everybody complains about me personally because I run out on them all time. Now they complain that i'm playing safeties when they expected me to run on them. WOW!!!!
 
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Brian in VA

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
May I suggest that, rather than calling out Mark's folks on this public forum, you call the BCAPL league office? Find out the name of the person your league rep spoke to, and then ask to speak with them. My experience has been that the facts are slightly different from the story. :wink: In other words, what really happened could be completely different. In addition, the league office has only heard one side of the story; the other side may change their attitude, too.

I doubt that the league office told them to do that to your team. That said, if your team is as bad at safeties as you say, you're probably losing more matches until you get better at playing them, aren't you? If not, that's probably why everyone is complaining; they're still losing to your team even when you don't run out. And that looks like sandbagging to them.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Brian in VA
 

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
When people are getting beat, they look for excuses. I have the opposite problem. I play safe well but couldn't run out of a burning building.
 

stuckart

Paint Dry Watching Champ
Silver Member
I agree with Brian, I'd edit your post to remove anything you are not 100% on and call the BCAPL to discuss. (It's not the BCA)


I have a hard time believing anyone would say to kick out a team because they are playing too many safeties. The BCAPL is made up of some really good pool players, they understand the importance of Safeties and much much more.
 

Worminator

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Spend your time playing One Pocket at your local hall... much more fun than leagues and you will brush up on your safety play... :eek:
 

sunnyday

Ima Gangsta Bunny!
Silver Member
Hi, qbuilder/Eric

If you have a complaint with your league operator, give the head quarter office a call. They are there 9-5 Mon-Fri and will be glad to look into that matter and also protect your privacy if needed to.

Ask for Glenna Stock at (702) 719-7665 or email her: glenna@playcsipool.com. I thought about cut and paste your thread and send it to her, but I let you make that decision.

Good luck and hope all gets cleared up.

Sunny
 

MOJOE

Work Hard, Be Humble. jbk
Silver Member
Spend your time playing One Pocket at your local hall... much more fun than leagues and you will brush up on your safety play... :eek:

I play leagues too but could not agree with Jamie any more.. I'd much rather play 1P if I could find anyone to play but opt. for leagues as a second choice..
 

brechbt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's the layout. I play on a 5-man team in a BCAPL 8-ball league. We have the 8-point handicap system, meaning you get a point per ball and no bonus for winning the game. It's screwed up but that's not my issue. The issue is that my team has been accused of sandbagging.

We do go to Vegas every May to compete in nationals. We get our asses handed to us, too. I can run out with a high consistency. Two of the matches last season I ran every rack, leaving my opponents no shot the entire night. I run 4-5-6 packs of bar box 8-ball fairly commonly. I can play that game. However, I get crushed in Vegas. My safety game is lousy and getting out of safes is lousy. Play me safe & you'll destroy me. That's an issue in my game I want to fix, as does my other teammates. We want to be competitive at national level & feel our offense is good but defense is equally & oppositely bad. This season we decided we'd practice safety play for an entire season leading up to nationals. As incentive, we agreed to make an ante pot that we all put money in when somebody pulls off a lock, BIH safety. It's like $.25, not green cash. Nothing big but at the end of the season will be 40-50 bucks that we can put down & buy ourselves a round of drinks in Vegas. That's the scenario.

Last night there was a captain's meeting called because a few people in the league think we are sandbagging because we play safeties when there's open shots, and play too many of them. One of the officers even called the BCA to ask for advice on how to handle us. She was told to boot us from the league or give us all 8-handicaps. WTF? Really? Exactly what do we have to gain by sandbagging? There is absolutely no gain from it. We're practicing safety play so we can compete better at national level. They even accused us of gambling (the ante pot). What's going on here? Why are we being punished for trying to learn to be better players? Everybody complains about me personally because I run out on them all time. Now they complain that i'm playing safeties when they expected me to run on them. WOW!!!!

Anyway, sorry for the ranting long post. I'm just upset a lil. So if anybody from the BCA is reading this, WTF? Why am I playing in your league, by your rules, to compete in your national tournament, for you to tell my league officers to kick me off the league or give me a bogus handicap? First, explain to me exactly what could be gained by sandbagging in a league that has no handicap tourney & gets paid ONLY by the number of balls pocked? There's no motive. Why is it so tough to accept that a team wants to learn safety play because they suck at it? Now with the BCAPL's advice, our league is blackmailing us with removal from the league if we continue to play safeties instead of aggressively trying to win the game. They are trying to dictate the way we play and choose our shots. Excuse me if that upsets me a bit.
If your original post was to blow off steam about what you think is unfair treatment, then disregard this post.

However, if you are genuinely curious about why the BCA may be treating you this way, then I will speculate. I play in a BCA league. I'm assuming, although you did not say this, that your league charges weekly fees, some of which goes into a local prize pool. The handicap system is somewhat based on an assumption that everyone plays to win every game. If anyone is practicing safety play during matches, then that person would be perceived to not be playing to win those particular games. That practice could move a person's handicap opposite their true speed. If strong players did this, they could have a handicap advantage late in a season, and finish strongly in the money by dropping their safety practice and going back to running out frequently.

The people complaining about this possibly are not concerned with going to Vegas, but just concerned with being competitive in the local seasonal payouts.

Maybe you should ask some of the other teams in your league how they feel about this issue. If you get some guys you're friendly with to open up about it you'll probably gain some perspective.

Of course, all of this is just MHO.
 

Big Perm

1pkt 14.1 8 Banks 9 10
Silver Member
If I was playing your team, and you had an easy open run-out, and you played a safety on an open shot just because you are practicing a safety.........well, I'd just think you were a douchebag....

My free time is limited.....I compete in BCA to meet good people, enjoy the game, and test my skills....if my opponent is not giving me their best effort, and instead, has decided to purposely play some little game within the game, then I'm going to get pissed off.....as far as the sandbagging comment, if your league is measured by the number of times/shots you miss and it effects your handicap, then indeed you are sandbagging when you miss a shot you can make....

Look at it this way.....you come to an exibition and you get a chance to play the great Johnny Archer in a race to 5.....instead of playing his normal game and you getting a chance to match your skills against his, every time he shoots he just locks you up with an impossible safe and 3-fouls you 5 games in a row.....at the end, you look puzzled - his excuse is that he is practicing his safes today.....are you honestly cool with that?

You want to practice your safeties? Do it when you are practicing with your team. Most people come to league, bringing their best game, and they expect you to do the same.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Point made. I feel like an idiot for venting. It's not the BCA's fault. In fact, I have no clue exactly what was said to the BCA so their response may well have been correct for the scenario they were given. Likely so. I edited my post to change that.

Thanks Sunny. I'll call if I need to. Hopefully I can fix it here without the BCA's help.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
However, if you are genuinely curious about why the BCA may be treating you this way, then I will speculate. I play in a BCA league. I'm assuming, although you did not say this, that your league charges weekly fees, some of which goes into a local prize pool. The handicap system is somewhat based on an assumption that everyone plays to win every game. If anyone is practicing safety play during matches, then that person would be perceived to not be playing to win those particular games. That practice could move a person's handicap opposite their true speed. If strong players did this, they could have a handicap advantage late in a season, and finish strongly in the money by dropping their safety practice and going back to running out frequently.

The people complaining about this possibly are not concerned with going to Vegas, but just concerned with being competitive in the local seasonal payouts.

Maybe you should ask some of the other teams in your league how they feel about this issue. If you get some guys you're friendly with to open up about it you'll probably gain some perspective.

Of course, all of this is just MHO.

That's exactly what's going on. However, they are used to me finishing at the top and winning the money already. I play full steam all season & rob them. This year, i'm not. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. We get paid by balls pocked throughout the season, so if I lose & don't pocket many balls, I don't make much money. My opponents do, though. Which is my point about not having anything to gain by sandbagging. I'm losing money & know it, and am perfectly ok with it for the sake of actually utilizing those games for learning/honing a skill. I'm basically buying safety practice and paying my opponents to do so. I get better, they get my money. Where's the sandbagging?
 

sunnyday

Ima Gangsta Bunny!
Silver Member
Point made. I feel like an idiot for venting. It's not the BCA's fault. In fact, I have no clue exactly what was said to the BCA so their response may well have been correct for the scenario they were given. Likely so. I edited my post to change that.

Thanks Sunny. I'll call if I need to. Hopefully I can fix it here without the BCA's help.

I knew what you were saying. The number to the head quarter I gave you is to BCAPL in Vegas - not the BCA (Billiard Congres....) Glenna handles league management issues.

S.
 

skeptic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
IMHO, if you are trying to win you are trying to win, period. Whether it's an aggressive style or playing safeties, as long as you are not trying to lose games it shouldn't matter. Guy in our league, used to be teammates, absolutely loves playing safeties. Sometimes because it's the only logical shot, sometimes for position, and sometimes just to get into his opponents head. It doesn't always work and on the rare occasion going for a safety instead of an aggressive shot will cost him the game. I certainly wouldn't call it sandbagging.

I play BCA, but I'm not an official or leage operator or anything like that.

BTW, I don't like the way your league scores - it should be 10 for the win. An 8 to 7 score isn't nearly the incentive that a 10 to 7 would be, but still reflects a close game.
 

TimKrazyMon

Kid Delicious' Evil Twin
Silver Member
If your original post was to blow off steam about what you think is unfair treatment, then disregard this post.

However, if you are genuinely curious about why the BCA may be treating you this way, then I will speculate. I play in a BCA league. I'm assuming, although you did not say this, that your league charges weekly fees, some of which goes into a local prize pool. The handicap system is somewhat based on an assumption that everyone plays to win every game. If anyone is practicing safety play during matches, then that person would be perceived to not be playing to win those particular games. That practice could move a person's handicap opposite their true speed. If strong players did this, they could have a handicap advantage late in a season, and finish strongly in the money by dropping their safety practice and going back to running out frequently.

The people complaining about this possibly are not concerned with going to Vegas, but just concerned with being competitive in the local seasonal payouts.

Maybe you should ask some of the other teams in your league how they feel about this issue. If you get some guys you're friendly with to open up about it you'll probably gain some perspective.

Of course, all of this is just MHO.

I agree. qbilder, your team's practicing of safeties during league play does have an impact on the handicaps, not only of your team but the league as a whole. While this is more than likely unintentional, this adverse effect has ruffled a few feathers.

My best advice would be to practice your defense on your own time & gradually incorporate it into your game. Vegas isn't until May, so you have plenty of time.

I also agree with Big Perm. Don't be THAT guy, qilder. Don't be THAT guy.
 

Zivan1967

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I was playing your team, and you had an easy open run-out, and you played a safety on an open shot just because you are practicing a safety.........well, I'd just think you were a douchebag....

My free time is limited.....I compete in BCA to meet good people, enjoy the game, and test my skills....if my opponent is not giving me their best effort, and instead, has decided to purposely play some little game within the game, then I'm going to get pissed off.....as far as the sandbagging comment, if your league is measured by the number of times/shots you miss and it effects your handicap, then indeed you are sandbagging when you miss a shot you can make....

Look at it this way.....you come to an exibition and you get a chance to play the great Johnny Archer in a race to 5.....instead of playing his normal game and you getting a chance to match your skills against his, every time he shoots he just locks you up with an impossible safe and 3-fouls you 5 games in a row.....at the end, you look puzzled - his excuse is that he is practicing his safes today.....are you honestly cool with that?

You want to practice your safeties? Do it when you are practicing with your team. Most people come to league, bringing their best game, and they expect you to do the same.

great post, i would definitely be upset if i got to play Johnny Archer and he locked me up in jail every shot. Only to say in return, i'm practicing safes today lol
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
If I was playing your team, and you had an easy open run-out, and you played a safety on an open shot just because you are practicing a safety.........well, I'd just think you were a douchebag....

My free time is limited.....I compete in BCA to meet good people, enjoy the game, and test my skills....if my opponent is not giving me their best effort, and instead, has decided to purposely play some little game within the game, then I'm going to get pissed off.....as far as the sandbagging comment, if your league is measured by the number of times/shots you miss and it effects your handicap, then indeed you are sandbagging when you miss a shot you can make....

Look at it this way.....you come to an exibition and you get a chance to play the great Johnny Archer in a race to 5.....instead of playing his normal game and you getting a chance to match your skills against his, every time he shoots he just locks you up with an impossible safe and 3-fouls you 5 games in a row.....at the end, you look puzzled - his excuse is that he is practicing his safes today.....are you honestly cool with that?

You want to practice your safeties? Do it when you are practicing with your team. Most people come to league, bringing their best game, and they expect you to do the same.

I disagree. My best game would be better with good safety play. And i'm not giving exhibitions. I'm paying to play the same as everybody else. So long as I play within the specified rules, what's the problem? That's my prerogative.
 

TimKrazyMon

Kid Delicious' Evil Twin
Silver Member
That's exactly what's going on. However, they are used to me finishing at the top and winning the money already. I play full steam all season & rob them. This year, i'm not. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. We get paid by balls pocked throughout the season, so if I lose & don't pocket many balls, I don't make much money. My opponents do, though. Which is my point about not having anything to gain by sandbagging. I'm losing money & know it, and am perfectly ok with it for the sake of actually utilizing those games for learning/honing a skill. I'm basically buying safety practice and paying my opponents to do so. I get better, they get my money. Where's the sandbagging?

This may help. By practicing your defense, you are giving up opportunities to runout you would normally take advantage of and, from reading the OP, capitalize on. This creates a situation where opponents are winning more games & pocketing more balls than they normally would. While you are fine with losing money, the influence on your opponents handicaps is affecting them in their other matches because they are earning more points off your team then they normally do. By this logic, you are costing them money too.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I can see the point where folks could be irritated. That makes sense & I have considered it. But i'm paying the same amount of money as everybody else. And it's not like i'm winning. Some I win some I don't I screw up a good safe & somebody gets out on me. I get a lock safe & get BIH then I get out on them. I'm just not going balls to the wall like I normally do.

I might add that my team captain just had back surgery and cannot break nor even bend over to play. Another teammate is the guy who got ran over in front of the Riv 2 years ago & had both shins crushed and his skull fractured (some may remember that). He's medically retired & is now a BCAPL referee. He can't play like he used to, obviously. He can barely walk. And I have only played one match this season, period. The other teammates are C speed at best. To say i'm furious about my team being accused of sandbagging is an understatement. I simply don't understand why. There's nothing foul going on so being accused is a huge slap in the face to our integrity.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
In any sort of handicapped league you are going to get pushback when you aren't actively trying "to win". While your motives seem pure and reasonable, there will always be those who suspect ulterior motives when people don't appear to make shots that should normally be makeable. ESPECIALLY if you play as well as you indicate. That's just the way it is.

Accusing you of sandbagging is pretty serious, in my opinion. These folks must be pretty annoyed. Yes, you pay the same amount as everyone else, but if they perceive you to not be trying your best against them, they will automatically believe you are playing to adjust your handicap, or that your actions will adjust your handicaps regardless of motive. No matter how you explain it, there will be some who think you have some motive to lower your handicaps, even if they can't see why immediatley. And that's when it gets ugly.

I am quite sure that you can find opportunities in your matches to play a legit safety every now and then, for practice sake.

I wish you luck.
 

TimKrazyMon

Kid Delicious' Evil Twin
Silver Member
I can see the point where folks could be irritated. That makes sense & I have considered it. But i'm paying the same amount of money as everybody else. And it's not like i'm winning. Some I win some I don't I screw up a good safe & somebody gets out on me. I get a lock safe & get BIH then I get out on them. I'm just not going balls to the wall like I normally do.

I might add that my team captain just had back surgery and cannot break nor even bend over to play. Another teammate is the guy who got ran over in front of the Riv 2 years ago & had both shins crushed and his skull fractured (some may remember that). He's medically retired & is now a BCAPL referee. He can't play like he used to, obviously. He can barely walk. And I have only played one match this season, period. The other teammates are C speed at best. To say i'm furious about my team being accused of sandbagging is an understatement. I simply don't understand why. There's nothing foul going on so being accused is a huge slap in the face to our integrity.

The problem seems to be stemming from the other teams in your league having a certain "expectation" of your team's performance & right now that expectation is not being met, causing a ripple effect leaguewide. Some help may come from speaking to your fellow leaguemates & clearing the air. I find it helps when everyone can start seeing things from others' viewpoints.
 
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