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Seth C.
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03-09-2015, 03:47 PM

Thank you for this reply.

I gather that the reason you say that top spin should be okay if there is more than a foot of gap between the break ball and the rack is that top spin will bend the CB down to the bottom of the rack (assuming the break ball was middle rack before taking the shot). Everything you've said makes sense, and it is good to get confirmation of instinct.

After this thread caught my attention, I tried hitting a bunch of break shots where the break ball was about mid-rack, not too far from the rack (maybe 4-8 inches), with the line between the CB and the break ball being parallel to the long rail, or with the CB just a little toward the center of the table (relative to that line). Before hitting each break shot I assessed the 90 degree line and judged how I would have to hit the CB (high, middle or low) in order to cause the CB to hit the middle of a ball (that is, the middle of one of the middle balls) in the rack. I'm thinking that this approach is sensible, and that I was having some success in achieving my goal of a direct hit on a ball in the rack, because the CB was pretty often staying in the vicinity of the rack. Didn't always have a good shot (sometimes the only shot was into the head end opposite corner), but most of the time some better, if not good, shot was available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Harriman View Post
It's a good question, I have a fairly easy answer. Pay close attention to what part of the object ball your cue ball will contact after the break shot. This will be easier to visualize when the break ball is close to the rack (90 degree angle). If your cue ball will contact the top part of the object ball ( after a successful break shot ) then there is a good chance that with even center ball whitey' will reside up table after the break shot. If there is more than a foot from the break ball and the rack - top spin should be ok. The only exception to the rule is if there is not much angle on your break shot, then the cue ball will draw up table - unless you really know what your doing. Better to have plenty of angle on the break shot and look closely at what object ball the cue ball will hit.
  
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03-11-2015, 02:38 AM

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Originally Posted by DTL View Post
Ralf Eckert has many good YouTube videos on various topics both in German and English. He loves 14.1.

There is one video, unfortunately in German, on the 14.1 break. I've watched it trying to follow along but can't understand 75% of what he's saying...........I'm sure its packed full of good info.

Maybe someone could contact him and request an English version. Anyway, here's the link below.

DTL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJfD0sRBIbk
This video is solid gold, like most of Mr. Eckerts videos!
I can make a brief summary of what he is saying (key points only, rough summary). If you have a specific section you'd like me to translate word for word, I can do that as well (keep in mind that neither German, nor English is my arterial language,so some slight mistakes are likely). I've structured my eplaination differently than his for the sake of brevity:

The main theme of his video is the standard breakshot (with the object ball close to the side of the rack) and how to determine and control where the cue ball is going on these shots.

1: When the cueball strikes the object ball it travels along the tangent line towards the rack. The closer you are to the rack, the less chance you have to alter this path.

2:. The side of the rack is divided into pairs of object balls with the crack between them as the center.

3. Using high/low/left/right has less influence on the cueballs path on these side breakshots than which object ball in a pair is hit first.

4. Depending on which ball is struck first in such a pair, the cueball will move in three different "general directions" or "basic directions".

5. When hitting the ball below the crack first, the cueball will generally travel upwards towards the end rail.You have two possibilities:
A:You can use low, making sure to have enough speed to go to the end rail and back out.
B: You can use high to keep the cueball from going up, thereby keeping the cueball down table. He explains that he does not use a lot of high, but you can travel more down/sideways with more high. In his example he states he used a bit too much and got stuck, but did get a shot.

6. When hitting a ball full the cueball will generally travel towards the middle of the lower side rail/side pocket area. This is a bit more difficult to control exactly. He generally hits these with stun.

7. When hitting the ball above the crack first, the cueball will generally travel downwards to the head rail/corner
When you have a severe angle you have two options:
A: You can use high and hit the head rail, bending the ball forward from the general direction.
B: You can use low and hit the side rail above the pocket. He explains that you can also use sidespin to control the cueball in this case, though he doesn't in his example.
When you have a flat angle (less than perpendicular) you can only use low, since the forward spin won't be effective enough in bending the cueball path and hit the end rail.
(8. "Translators note" :Whenever he says "Basisrichtung", he is referring to the basic direction or general direction)

Hope this helps. Native German speakers are welcome- and encouraged to correct any mistakes.

Last edited by Straightpool_99; 03-11-2015 at 03:01 AM.
  
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03-11-2015, 07:11 AM

Thanks so much for the translation.


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03-12-2015, 05:13 PM

Guess I'll throw in my 2 cents on this subject. There's really not as much mystery to breakshots as most people think. There are however, a couple of things that are essential to achieving good results. One is a thorough knowledge of how the balls work and another is a good quality smooth stroke. Without those things a 14.1 beginner or intermediate player can use rules of thumb or try to copy what Archer or Appleton does with a particular angle on a certain shot but not come close to getting the same results. Suppose I'm stating the obvious that increasing knowledge and developing a better stroke is key to improvement.

As Wigglybridge stated I'm a big advocate of using follow on breakshots. I'm also in the hit it hard camp. Not warp speed but medium on up when conditions allow. I'll back it off a little with small pockets or a difficult shot but not much. Another thing that will improve results is steeper angles. With them you can use follow exclusively, hit it as hard as you want and almost never end up uptable. On the rare occasions you do go uptable chances are good there'll be a ball close to a corner or side to get you back in.
And it virtually eliminates scratches.

About the only time I don't like follow is when the OB is close (3" or less) to the rack and you are going to contact something other than the top part of the top ball, which by the way is an excellent high yield BS when hit with follow and medium+ speed.
If I could only shoot one BS for the rest of my life that would be it.
But if contacting any other part of the rack a scratch comes into play quite often.

Also as Bob mentioned, predicting where you'll hit isn't worth spending too much time on. If there's distance between the OB and the rack the only way to contact an exact spot is if the shot is struck with a good quality stun stroke** and even then the contact point will depend on whether the ball goes in the left, middle or right side of the pocket.
Now when you start hitting it with draw or follow and different speeds the contact point moves all over the place. It's just a guess at that point.

** My statement above isn't entirely true. When stunning a ball it travels down the tangent line until it hits something or stops. But no matter where you hit on the vertical axis the CB always starts out down the TL. When and how much it deviates depends on speed and quality of stroke. Pool 101 to most of us but I'm mentioning it because it's a very important factor in regards to breakshots, particularly when using follow.

In general you want the CB to hit the rack while still on the TL. Before it starts to curve.
Let's take a typical right handers BS where you're cutting the ball in the lower left corner. If the topspin takes effect before the CB hits the rack 2 things happen. Most obvious is that it hits further down the rack. Not necessarily a problem per se. The problem is that the CB only curves once. So if it curves before hitting the rack it won't curve after it leaves the rack. It'll tend to go 90 degrees off of the contact point and if that happens to be towards the pocket you're going to scratch.

If you hit the same shot harder and contact the rack before the CB curves you are no longer cutting the OB to the left you are cutting the rack to the right and the CB curves to the right, away from the pocket and down to the short rail. Or if you hit one of the upper balls on the top side (you now have cut the rack to the left) the CB curves away from the side pocket towards the middle of the long rail. If you happen to go from the OB and contact a rack ball dead straight on then the CB just backs up and stops or comes foward again a short distance.
In all 3 cases a scratch is taken out of the equation in all but a very rare occasion.

So if you tend to scratch a lot when following a BS I'd suggest examining the speed that you're using and also whether you're getting good topspin on the ball. Just because you hit the CB above center doesn't necessarily mean it has good topspin.
As John Schmidt says, you want pro grade follow on breakshots.

I'd estimate that I use follow on more than 90 percent of breakshots. Almost never scratch,almost always have a shot and am very seldom by the top rail.

As far as side englisn goes I use a fair amount of outside on the majority of shots. Reason being is that if you envision the path of the CB in the above scenarios outside becomes inside when it hits the rail and slows the CB down. Of course in the case where the CB hits straight on and backs up it's irrelevant but then you never know when that will occur so it can't hurt. It's just added insurance for keeping the ball in the lower half of the table.

There are certain angles where inside is called for but they present their own set of problems. Usually it's with a fairly shallow angle (maybe around 25-35 degrees) and you figure to hit the rack kind of a glancing blow. Speed is paramount on these shots and difficult to judge/control. Too hard and you're uptable. Too easy and/or too full a hit and you're halfway up the lower side rail with maybe a difficult cut into the opposite lower corner or no shot period. Scratch is also a possibility. It's a useful shot in certain circumstances but takes some getting used to. Mika I. is very good at this shot.

Well, all this is JMO on breakshots and other opinions may vary. Just sharing some stuff that works for me and has for a very long time. My theory is to get the balls open and not scratch. Give yourself something to work with.

Even top players have that moment after the break where they hold their breath waiting to see if they have a decent shot. And they usually do. Guess it's cuz they know how the balls work and have a good stroke. Nah, that can't be it. I think they're just really lucky....those rats.
  
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03-15-2015, 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post

As Wigglybridge stated I'm a big advocate of using follow on breakshots. I'm also in the hit it hard camp. Not warp speed but medium on up when conditions allow. I'll back it off a little with small pockets or a difficult shot but not much. Another thing that will improve results is steeper angles. With them you can use follow exclusively, hit it as hard as you want and almost never end up uptable. On the rare occasions you do go uptable chances are good there'll be a ball close to a corner or side to get you back in.
And it virtually eliminates scratches.

About the only time I don't like follow is when the OB is close (3" or less) to the rack and you are going to contact something other than the top part of the top ball, which by the way is an excellent high yield BS when hit with follow and medium+ speed.
If I could only shoot one BS for the rest of my life that would be it.
But if contacting any other part of the rack a scratch comes into play quite often.


In general you want the CB to hit the rack while still on the TL. Before it starts to curve.
Let's take a typical right handers BS where you're cutting the ball in the lower left corner. If the topspin takes effect before the CB hits the rack 2 things happen. Most obvious is that it hits further down the rack. Not necessarily a problem per se. The problem is that the CB only curves once. So if it curves before hitting the rack it won't curve after it leaves the rack. It'll tend to go 90 degrees off of the contact point and if that happens to be towards the pocket you're going to scratch.

So if you tend to scratch a lot when following a BS I'd suggest examining the speed that you're using and also whether you're getting good topspin on the ball. Just because you hit the CB above center doesn't necessarily mean it has good topspin.
As John Schmidt says, you want pro grade follow on breakshots.

I'd estimate that I use follow on more than 90 percent of breakshots. Almost never scratch,almost always have a shot and am very seldom by the top rail.
This was very helpful to me. Opened up a new dimension for me. Thanks.
  
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03-19-2015, 04:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
This was very helpful to me. Opened up a new dimension for me. Thanks.
Hope it helps Seth. There's a little experiment you could try which might help illustrate the CB reaction off the rack. A helper to rack would be good.

Place the CB 6" off the long rail in varying positions between 2.5 and 3.5 diamonds from the foot rail. You'll find that the majority of angles going off the OB into the rack originate from that area. Now with no OB shoot the CB at each part (top, center and bottom) of each of the 4 balls along the side of the rack. Shoot each shot with follow, stun and then draw and observe the results. This will ensure that the CB hits the rack and the curve will occur after leaving the rack.
Duplicate the exercise using inside and then outside english. The side englishes are irrelevant when contacting the rack but become very relevant after hitting a rail.

This little experiment will give you some idea of which method achieves better results. Of course ball yield will be largely determined by CB speed and contact point but the more important point is CB position once it comes to rest and avoiding scratches. Draw your own conclusions.

Many people espouse the philosophy that having the CB center table is best. I've found that the only time it might matter is when the BS only yields 3 or 4 balls. If 10+ balls are open then I don't much care where the CB is as long as it's not uptable or in a pocket.

Another thing to see is which results seem best when contacting the top, middle or bottom of the rack. The angle of approach is important here. In general there are limited angles going into the middle area that are good, more towards the bottom and the most at the top. Again, draw your own conclusions. Find what works best and try to duplicate it as often as possible.

Good luck with your progress.
  
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03-19-2015, 09:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
Hope it helps Seth. There's a little experiment you could try which might help illustrate the CB reaction off the rack. A helper to rack would be good.

Place the CB 6" off the long rail in varying positions between 2.5 and 3.5 diamonds from the foot rail. You'll find that the majority of angles going off the OB into the rack originate from that area. Now with no OB shoot the CB at each part (top, center and bottom) of each of the 4 balls along the side of the rack. Shoot each shot with follow, stun and then draw and observe the results. This will ensure that the CB hits the rack and the curve will occur after leaving the rack.
Duplicate the exercise using inside and then outside english. The side englishes are irrelevant when contacting the rack but become very relevant after hitting a rail.

This little experiment will give you some idea of which method achieves better results. Of course ball yield will be largely determined by CB speed and contact point but the more important point is CB position once it comes to rest and avoiding scratches. Draw your own conclusions.

Many people espouse the philosophy that having the CB center table is best. I've found that the only time it might matter is when the BS only yields 3 or 4 balls. If 10+ balls are open then I don't much care where the CB is as long as it's not uptable or in a pocket.

Another thing to see is which results seem best when contacting the top, middle or bottom of the rack. The angle of approach is important here. In general there are limited angles going into the middle area that are good, more towards the bottom and the most at the top. Again, draw your own conclusions. Find what works best and try to duplicate it as often as possible.

Good luck with your progress.
More good stuff. But ... there is also the element of ensuring that you make the shot. So, the benefit of adding English, especially from steeper angles, has to be weighed against the degree of reduction in confidence that (depending on the player's skill level) might accompany the incorporation of English. What has been most eye opening to me, as someone who had only a draw shot, a stun shot, and, when the OB was low enough that I thought that I couldn't scratch, a follow shot with inside English (to bring the CB around to center table), is that (as you advised) hard follow -- from many angles -- takes scratching out of play. It also, as you note above, often leaves the CB in the foot end with good options. So, I'm finding myself, at present, quite happy with this new shot -- high center, and hard.

Thanks for the follow up and further help. Seth.
  
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03-20-2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
So, I'm finding myself, at present, quite happy with this new shot -- high center, and hard.
Just one thing to be careful about with this shot: Without any english the cue ball tends to hit the foot rail and then travel all the way up to the head of the table. Right or wrong, I tend not to use english unless it is called for, but in this case just a touch of outside will keep the cue ball down with the other balls. It'll hit the foot rail and then bounce into other balls, often giving you a second break if the table is fast. Everbody says, "Use a little outside on this shot" but nobody ever says why (probably because they don't know), until I saw Willie's video in which he quickly explains the above. Easy to miss if you aren't paying attention.


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03-20-2015, 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Just one thing to be careful about with this shot: Without any english the cue ball tends to hit the foot rail and then travel all the way up to the head of the table. Right or wrong, I tend not to use english unless it is called for, but in this case just a touch of outside will keep the cue ball down with the other balls. It'll hit the foot rail and then bounce into other balls, often giving you a second break if the table is fast. Everbody says, "Use a little outside on this shot" but nobody ever says why (probably because they don't know), until I saw Willie's video in which he quickly explains the above. Easy to miss if you aren't paying attention.
Got it. Thanks.
  
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04-19-2015, 08:06 AM

In case you think you are the only person who struggles with whether to follow or draw watch and listen to Mike Sigel here.

https://youtu.be/c7we59K8kms?t=2189


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04-19-2015, 09:35 AM

Once you see what ball you're hitting, you can either hit the bottom part of the ball, center or top of the ball. Danny has a good description above. Hitting low on ball with outside draw will typically stick you, while inside draw will send you across to the side rail and back to center. Hitting the center (face) of the ball with center can sometimes send you to a scratch. Low/high there can help you escape. Hitting high on a ball will launch you to the kitchen with a little draw.

Joe Tucker also teaches this rack reading technique. It's certainly not chance, but if you read the point of impact correctly but then do something that results in a different point of impact, it won't be the desired result.
  
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