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peppersauce
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14.1 Break Ball Help - 08-08-2018, 10:56 AM

Can anyone here recommend any books or videos that go in depth about different break ball positions and how to execute them?

I’m pretty clueless about what areas are good for break balls around the stack. I have a decent feel for the standard side of the stack break shot, but that’s the only one I really know and I feel like I must be overlooking a lot of good break balls.

Even the side of the rack break shot...I feel like I don’t know what spin to use sometimes. I just whack at it and hope for the best. Sometimes the CB squats above the rack area and it’s perfect, sometimes I follow off the stack into the corner I shot the break ball into, sometimes the CB pops back and follows across table into the side pocket, etc.

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!
  
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08-08-2018, 11:02 AM

Capelles Break shot patterns, and Ray Martins Critical shots. Watch Mika, Hohmann and Feijen on you tube.

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Pat Fleming's Creative Edge
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Tony_in_MD
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Pat Fleming's Creative Edge - 08-08-2018, 11:34 AM

Good information in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY&t=384s


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08-08-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by peppersauce View Post
Can anyone here recommend any books or videos that go in depth about different break ball positions and how to execute them?

Iím pretty clueless about what areas are good for break balls around the stack. I have a decent feel for the standard side of the stack break shot, but thatís the only one I really know and I feel like I must be overlooking a lot of good break balls.

Even the side of the rack break shot...I feel like I donít know what spin to use sometimes. I just whack at it and hope for the best. Sometimes the CB squats above the rack area and itís perfect, sometimes I follow off the stack into the corner I shot the break ball into, sometimes the CB pops back and follows across table into the side pocket, etc.

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!
If you'd care to search my back posts I have a ton of 14.1 info there. Some pertains to breakshots. There's a lot on shot selection which IMO is your weakest area.
  
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08-08-2018, 09:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
Another great video available on YouTube: Mike Sigelís 14.1 Instructional video - How to run 100 balls. Before he runs 100, he demonstrates in detail all the various break shots and other important facets of playing straight pool. Really good stuff!
  
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Seth C.
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08-09-2018, 05:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
With no disrespect intended for the OP, Mr. Fleming, or anyone else, I'd have some difficulty suggesting the Fleming tape on break shots as a first resource. I never understood how he could recommend a high or low hit on the CB without consideration/discussion of whether the CB was itself high or low relative to the stack, or where the CB is expected to contact an OB (or OBs) in the stack. Same for his recommendation of right English: he makes it without consideration of these same points. Interestingly, I guess I'd put it, he doesn't even explain why right English. Certainly there are plenty of players who effectively use high left (when CB is on left side of table) when the CB is located low relative to the stack, in order to bring the CB back to the middle of the table. But there are also plenty of fine player-instructors who would say to not use English on a break shot unless, given all the variables, it would offer a notable advantage over a center CB hit, and unless you are very confident and proficient when applying English.

I know he talks about his recommendations as being rules of thumb, not absolutes, but I don't understand how using right English should be a rule of thumb whenever the CB is equidistant with the OB from the side rail, or whenever the CB is located further from the side rail than is the CB. He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb.

Finally, I know it's a quibble, and maybe I'm in the minority, but the reference to putting center high or low on the CB as applying "English" struck me as a misapplication of the term.

Having said all of the above, I will be the first to admit that I'm not very good at this tough game and basically feel that I have way, way more to figure out - including about break shots - than I currently know.
  
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08-09-2018, 05:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
With no disrespect intended for the OP, Mr. Fleming, or anyone else, I'd have some difficulty suggesting the Fleming tape on break shots as a first resource. I never understood how he could recommend a high or low hit on the CB without consideration/discussion of whether the CB was itself high or low relative to the stack, or where the CB is expected to contact an OB (or OBs) in the stack. Same for his recommendation of right English: he makes it without consideration of these same points. Interestingly, I guess I'd put it, he doesn't even explain why right English. Certainly there are plenty of players who effectively use high left (when CB is on left side of table) when the CB is located low relative to the stack, in order to bring the CB back to the middle of the table. But there are also plenty of fine player-instructors who would say to not use English on a break shot unless, given all the variables, it would offer a notable advantage over a center CB hit, and unless you are very confident and proficient when applying English.

I know he talks about his recommendations as being rules of thumb, not absolutes, but I don't understand how using right English should be a rule of thumb whenever the CB is equidistant with the OB from the side rail, or whenever the CB is located further from the side rail than is the CB. He also doesn't discuss the importance, when the OB is far enough away from the stack to be able to influence the point of contact with the stack by applying high or low on the CB, of contacting the stack other than in its middle. That would be a good rule of thumb.

Finally, I know it's a quibble, and maybe I'm in the minority, but the reference to putting center high or low on the CB as applying "English" struck me as a misapplication of the term.

Having said all of the above, I will be the first to admit that I'm not very good at this tough game and basically feel that I have way, way more to figure out - including about break shots - than I currently know.
I agree. However, Pat's video is a good starting point, especially showing the larger break area. Nevertheless, it's more productive to focus on end game pattern play, those last 6-5 balls. Blackjack has a couple of end pattern drills that are helpful.

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08-09-2018, 09:05 AM

I know Ralph Greenleaf used to favor sidepocket breaks (10’ table), but those often leave me stuck to pack.
  
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08-09-2018, 09:06 AM

I know Ralph Greenleaf used to favor sidepocket breaks (10í table), but those often leave me stuck to pack.
  
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08-09-2018, 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by peppersauce View Post
Can anyone here recommend any books or videos that go in depth about different break ball positions and how to execute them?

Iím pretty clueless about what areas are good for break balls around the stack. I have a decent feel for the standard side of the stack break shot, but thatís the only one I really know and I feel like I must be overlooking a lot of good break balls.

Even the side of the rack break shot...I feel like I donít know what spin to use sometimes. I just whack at it and hope for the best. Sometimes the CB squats above the rack area and itís perfect, sometimes I follow off the stack into the corner I shot the break ball into, sometimes the CB pops back and follows across table into the side pocket, etc.

Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!
Jim Rempe made an instructional tape for Accu-Stats called "How To Run A Rack in Straight Pool" and "How to Run 100 Balls" they are both amazing. i do believe they are still available at www.accu-stats.com they cover just about everything in 14.1 and the information that Jim gives you cannot put a pricetag on. It's definitly worth checking out !!

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08-10-2018, 06:18 PM

@SethC: Re the Pat Fleming video/advice. I don't believe the right or left english is intended to affect the cueball path to the rack, but how it will come off the 1st rail.
  
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Seth C.
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08-10-2018, 07:15 PM

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@SethC: Re the Pat Fleming video/advice. I don't believe the right or left english is intended to affect the cueball path to the rack, but how it will come off the 1st rail.
John -- Thanks for your reply. Yes, I knew that. My points were twofold. First, he didn't explain that to the viewer (making the information less helpful and possibly confusing to newer players). Second, why recommend right English (assuming any English is called for) irrespective of (a) whether the CB is expected (based on where you anticipate the CB to contact a ball (or balls) in the stack, and speed) to go to the side rail or the end rail, (b) where on the rail in question the CB is expected to land, and (c) the speed of the CB (at higher speed the CB might break up or come off the remainder of the stack on second impact, whereas at lower speed it might get stuck)? If, for example, right English would be expected to cause the CB come off the end rail and spin back into the bottom of the stack (possibly leaving no shot), but no English (best whenever possible) or left English would cause the CB to angle or spin away from the stack after contacting the end rail and work its way back to center table, why use right English? Maybe you or someone will educate me and I'll learn something new! Regards.
  
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08-11-2018, 09:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
If, for example, right English would be expected to cause the CB come off the end rail and spin back into the bottom of the stack (possibly leaving no shot), but no English (best whenever possible) or left English would cause the CB to angle or spin away from the stack after contacting the end rail and work its way back to center table, why use right English? Maybe you or someone will educate me and I'll learn something new! Regards.

In most cases, the CB, in the examples he gave, will not come off the end rail and back into the rack. That's not the purpose for applying right. It's most usual purpose would be to slow the CB down after coming off the rail. If the same shot is hit with the same speed but no english or left is used there's a good chance it will end up way uptable or even in a pocket. A couple of the main goals when shooting breakshots is to avoid scratching and to stay downtable. The technique he advocates is helpful in accomplishing those 2 things.
He doesn't give reasons for what he says to do but it's only about 5 min. of video.
To explain all the nuances could take more like 5 hrs. He does say that every situation is different and other scenarios may call for doing something differently.
Aspiring 14.1 players may want to take note about something. If you take a look at the table layouts in the 3 times he does the side of rack breakshots you'll see that the 1st 2 table layouts after the break are superior than the 3rd one. That should indicate to you that, with breaksots in general, more angle is better.
  
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08-11-2018, 11:14 AM

I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you can’t get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. It’s bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!
  
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08-11-2018, 09:31 PM

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I can see how english is important when breaking from behind the rack (you canít get uptable without it), but it can certainly complicate shotmaking. Itís bad enough that you must take into consideration the condition of the balls & speed of hit (loft/throw) when making any cut shot, but when you add english to the mix (squirt deflection & spin throw), pocketing the break shot in a pressure situation can often get dicey. After all, if you miss and your opponent is any good, you are usually SOL!
Completely agree.
  
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