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08-22-2018, 06:19 AM

WHO WON ?????? lol

all the lead up for every match on facebook, and after the match was over not one post congratulating Thor on his 5th World 14.1 Championship title from World 14.1 !!!

I dont know if it's for magazine rights for them to do the official story. Still would be nice to see a pic of the champ once again holding the trophy !!!


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08-22-2018, 06:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
Thanks for the reply and info. With this further information, I guess my remaining thought is really my original one -- it doesn't seem that Hopkins' 14.1 body of work is big enough to match up against what Hohmann has built. Hopkins may have been great at it for a limited period of time, but HOF/legend status in sports is generally reserved for those who have reached the top of the hill many times over many years. I know that Hopkins played for many years, but his 14.1 victories (victory?) seem to be limited to the late 70s. Perhaps a little oddly, if you were to tell me that he only competed in major 14.1 events for a few years in the late 70s, I'd be more inclined to see the case for him than if you were to tell me that in the early-to-mid 70s and in the 80s he competed but lost to Miserak, etc.
That's a fair point, Seth. I think at their respective peaks, the two were equal at 14.1, but Thorsten's body of work is, perhaps, wider. Some of that is, of course, due to Allen's gradual move toward entrepreneurship and his expo is close to thirty years old now.

Still, to win a world title back then, you had to beat a field that included Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Dallas West, Ray Martin and Dan DiLiberto. Along with Hopkins, that makes ten BCA Hall of Famers in the field! Add names like Jim Fusco, Jack Colavita, Larry Lisciotti, and Pete Margo to the mix and you can start to get a sense of just how tough those fields really were and how hard it was to win titles.

So yes, Allen had the misfortune of competing against the toughest fields the 14.1 discipline ever knew, but he more than held his own against them in his prime and is, indeed, an all-time great.

Still, don't forget that the regional tour system played a lot of 14.1 back then. The most prestigious of the regional tours back then was the Eastern States Tour, a forerunner of both the All About Pool Tour and the Joss Tour. Allen would have won some of those events, and many of them had a field as tough as what the Charlie Williams events usually produce.

Last edited by sjm; 08-22-2018 at 06:25 AM.
  
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08-22-2018, 07:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
That's a fair point, Seth. I think at their respective peaks, the two were equal at 14.1, but Thorsten's body of work is, perhaps, wider. Some of that is, of course, due to Allen's gradual move toward entrepreneurship and his expo is close to thirty years old now.

Still, to win a world title back then, you had to beat a field that included Steve Mizerak, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Dallas West, Ray Martin and Dan DiLiberto. Along with Hopkins, that makes ten BCA Hall of Famers in the field! Add names like Jim Fusco, Jack Colavita, Larry Lisciotti, and Pete Margo to the mix and you can start to get a sense of just how tough those fields really were and how hard it was to win titles.

So yes, Allen had the misfortune of competing against the toughest fields the 14.1 discipline ever knew, but he more than held his own against them in his prime and is, indeed, an all-time great.

Still, don't forget that the regional tour system played a lot of 14.1 back then. The most prestigious of the regional tours back then was the Eastern States Tour, a forerunner of both the All About Pool Tour and the Joss Tour. Allen would have won some of those events, and many of them had a field as tough as what the Charlie Williams events usually produce.
All good points.

Such a shame that the governance of the sport has been so splintered and shaky, and that the meaningful/major 14.1 events have been so inconsistent in occurrence, name, place, strength of field, and recordation. Even today we have a spot-on post by Steve Kurtz rightly bemoaning the failure of the promoter (think about that -- the actual promoter) of the just completed World 14.1 to publicize to a (the?) primary 14.1 audience (this forum, small as it is) -- who won the event.

Sure hope that Peter Burrows made the right call in moving the American 14.1 to NYC from VA. Just seems that with each change in these various events there comes doubt about stability. Witness what happened at the Derby City George Fels Memorial Straight Pool Challenge this year . . . https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=468329
  
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08-22-2018, 08:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
WHO WON ?????? lol

all the lead up for every match on facebook, and after the match was over not one post congratulating Thor on his 5th World 14.1 Championship title from World 14.1 !!!

I dont know if it's for magazine rights for them to do the official story. Still would be nice to see a pic of the champ once again holding the trophy !!!
They couldn't post on here. There were banned
  
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08-22-2018, 12:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Joe_Jaguar View Post
They couldn't post on here. There were banned
What in the world did the promoter of a billiard tournament do to get itself banned from a billiards forum?
  
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08-22-2018, 12:26 PM

Thank you, AtLarge for all your contributions. We love the stats!


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08-22-2018, 01:21 PM

Allen Hopkins' Tournament Record (Thanks to Charles Ursiti)
August 25 - 29, 1970

5th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
5th High Run 74
August 16 – 21, 1971

6th Annual BCA U. S. Open Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
25th
August 15 – 19, 1972

7th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
9th High Run 141
January 26 – February 17, 1973

5th Annual Los Angeles World Pocket Billiard Championship Tournament American Legion Post 43 – 2035 North Highland Ave – Hollywood, CA

10th
August 7 - 11, 1973

8th BCA Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom - Sheraton-Chicago Hotel - Chicago, IL
15th

February 1 - 23, 1974

6th Annual World’s Pocket Billiard Championship
American Legion Post #3 - 2035 North Highland Ave - Hollywood, CA
2nd High Run 150
August 5 - 10, 1974

9th Annual U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
9th
August 16 – 25, 1975

10th Annual BCA U. S. Open
Grand Ballroom – Sheraton-Chicago Hotel – Chicago
5th

August 9 – 15, 1976

1st Annual PPPA World Open Asbury Park, NJ
11th
August 8 - 14, 1977

2nd Annual PPPA World Open Convention Center - Asbury Park, NJ
1st
August 12 – 19, 1978
3rd Annual PPPA World Open
Grand Ballroom - Biltmore Hotel – New York City, NY
2nd
August 12 – 18, 1979

4th Annual PPPA World Open
Holiday Inn Coliseum – 57th Street – New York City, NY
12th
August 16 – 25, 1980

5th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York City, NY
46th
August 16 – 25, 1981

6th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom - Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street – New York, NY
15th
August 14 – 21, 1982

7th Annual PPPA World Open Pocket Billiard Championship
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel – 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
8th

August 13 - 20, 1983

8th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Tournament
Grand Ballroom – Roosevelt Hotel 45th Street & Madison Ave – New York City, NY
7-8th
November 18 – 23, 1985
World 14.1 Championship
International Convention Center - Niagara Falls, NY
5-6th
August 9 – 16, 1986

9th Annual PPPA World Open 14.1 Championship Philadelphia Center Hotel – Philadelphia, PA
2nd
November 28 – December 1, 1989
14th BCA U.S. Open 14.1 Championship
Congress Hotel – 520 S. Michigan Ave – Chicago, IL
7-8


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08-22-2018, 01:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BayGene View Post
Allen Hopkins' Tournament Record (Thanks to Charles Ursiti) ...
It looks like that list is 19 14.1 events.

1st -- once
2nd -- 3 times
other top 8 -- 6 times
out of the top 8 -- 9 times
  
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08-22-2018, 01:37 PM

Hohmann's record in the World 14.1:

1st -- 5 times
2nd -- once
other top 8 -- 6 times
out of the top 8 -- once
  
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08-22-2018, 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
It looks like that list is 19 14.1 events.

1st -- once
2nd -- 3 times
other top 8 -- 6 times
out of the top 8 -- 9 times
Wikipedia (again, no slight intended, but no vouching for completeness or accuracy) lists the following 14.1 wins by Hohmann:

2015 World 14.1 Tournament Champion
2013 World 14.1 Tournament Champion
2013 Maryland 14.1 Challenge Champion
2011 World 14.1 Tournament Champion
2008 Accu-Stats 14.1 Invitational
2008 Lucasi Hybrid 14.1 Champion
2006 World 14.1 Tournament Champion
2003 German 14.1 Champion
2003 New Jersey State 14.1 Champion

Of course, he just added the 2018 World 14.1 title to this list.

This list does not include runner up or other finishes in other 14.1 events. A quick check of the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (formerly Maryland 14.1 Straight Pool Championship) website shows that he has finished second in that event three times (in addition to his 2013 win):

Niels Feijen defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-114 Oct 16, 2016
Darren Appleton defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-94 Oct 25, 2015
John Schmidt defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-21 Aug 18, 2012

Not trying to compare strength of the fields in the various events in which Hopkins and Hohmann have competed.
  
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08-22-2018, 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
It looks like that list is 19 14.1 events.

1st -- once
2nd -- 3 times
other top 8 -- 6 times
out of the top 8 -- 9 times
I couldn't quickly find any info. on Hopkins' opponents in the 1977 PPPA World 14.1 tournament that he won, but here is an interesting piece of history about the event.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/08/07/a...f-changes.html
  
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08-22-2018, 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
... A quick check of the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship (formerly Maryland 14.1 Straight Pool Championship) website shows that he has finished second in that event three times (in addition to his 2013 win):

Niels Feijen defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-114 Oct 16, 2016
Darren Appleton defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-94 Oct 25, 2015
John Schmidt defeated Thorsten Hohmann 150-21 Aug 18, 2012 ...
Hmmm. Feijen did win that event in 2016, but he beat Immonen in the finals. Hohmann finished 9th/16th.

[per AzB database]

P.S. I watched that Feijen/Immonen final, so I know that is correct.

Last edited by AtLarge; 08-22-2018 at 02:09 PM.
  
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08-22-2018, 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
Hmmm. Feijen did win that event in 2016, but he beat Immonen in the finals. Hohmann finished 9th/16th.

[per AzB database]

P.S. I watched that Feijen/Immonen final, so I know that is correct.
Hmmm . . . you are absolutely correct, and there is a YouTube video of the match for all to see. I copied and pasted that info. directly from the American 14.1 Straight Pool Championship website (http://www.americanstraightpool.com/players.html), so go figure. Yet another reason to be uncertain about billiards records . . .
  
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08-22-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth C. View Post
All good points.


Sure hope that Peter Burrows made the right call in moving the American 14.1 to NYC from VA. Just seems that with each change in these various events there comes doubt about stability. Witness what happened at the Derby City George Fels Memorial Straight Pool Challenge this year . . . https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=468329
It's not that Peter Burrows decided to move the tournament, rather the owners of Diamond Billiards in Midlothian VA made a business decision to no longer host the tournament.
  
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08-22-2018, 04:26 PM

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Lee -- I didn't intend to demean your work, and thanks for all the effort that you put in on behalf of the game and its followers!
Yup, that's Seth. Causing trouble wherever he goes!


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