Your Hand at End of Backstroke

3kushn said:

Read the Pause at Backstroke and want to ask opinions on the grip hand opening up at the end of the backstroke and closing on delivery.

A friend who is a very good player is experimenting with this after watching several snooker coaches recommendations. This guys normal stroke produces more English than 99% of all players. His record speaks to this.

What are your thoughts on this. Is it better, worse, or simply style? What would be the advantages or disadvantages? Is there either? Can more English be produced with this technique?

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Closing the hand during delivery (often with wrist motion) can add speed, but as Bob says that's not really "more spin" in pool terms. And it's another moving part.

I avoid the issue by only using two fingers (index and middle) and thumb, making a pretty freely pivoting grip.

pj
chgo

3kushn said:

Read the Pause at Backstroke and want to ask opinions on the grip hand opening up at the end of the backstroke and closing on delivery.

A friend who is a very good player is experimenting with this after watching several snooker coaches recommendations. This guys normal stroke produces more English than 99% of all players. His record speaks to this.

What are your thoughts on this. Is it better, worse, or simply style? What would be the advantages or disadvantages? Is there either? Can more English be produced with this technique?

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I would reject any potential client who insisted on opening and closing his hand as part of his normal stroking routine. I do not see any valid reason for doing that.

FranCrimi said:

I would reject any potential client who insisted on opening and closing his hand as part of his normal stroking routine. I do not see any valid reason for doing that.

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I'd say probably 95% of the best cueist (probably 99.9% of top snooker players) in the world do just that. All snooker instructors teach this.

The goal is to pull the cue back on a straight line as level as possible. Without unfurling the back 2 or 3 fingers on the backswing you either get stuck or get unwanted rise in the butt of the cue. On the forward stroke the fingers just simply close back where they were. This happens best with looser grip pressures.

Name a top 25 player and I can probably show video evidence.

DTL said:

I'd say probably 95% of the best cueist (probably 99.9% of top snooker players) in the world do just that. All snooker instructors teach this.

The goal is to pull the cue back on a straight line as level as possible. Without unfurling the back 2 or 3 fingers on the backswing you either get stuck or get unwanted rise in the butt of the cue. On the forward stroke the fingers just simply close back where they were. This happens best with looser grip pressures.

Name a top 25 player and I can probably show video evidence.

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I hope you're wrong in your percentages and that they're just your guess. The reason why those players are opening and closing their hand is because their pressure points are on the first three fingers. There is absolutely no evidence that shows that pressure on the front three is better than pressure on the back three. Therefore, it's nothing more than a matter of technique and most likely, tradidion that's been passed down through generations.

I have experimented extensively with this and have found that pressure on the back three is much more stable, which is how I play and teach today.

We have a few of those traditions also in the States that have been passed down, such as the pinkie off the cue at all times. Back when players stood taller and they needed to use their wrist to push the cue through because their armswing was hindered by their body height at the table, it was important to release the pinkie from the cue to allow the wrist to flick. Today, players who stand low to the table and thus are able to accomplish a complete armswing, take their pinkie off the cue because they were taught that way without understanding the reason for it's origin and use.

DTL said:

I'd say probably 95% of the best cueist (probably 99.9% of top snooker players) in the world do just that. All snooker instructors teach this. The goal is to pull the cue back on a straight line as level as possible.

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FranCrimi said:

I hope you're wrong in your percentages and that they're just your guess. The reason why those players are opening and closing their hand is because their pressure points are on the first three fingers. There is absolutely no evidence that shows that pressure on the front three is better than pressure on the back three. Therefore, it's nothing more than a matter of technique and most likely, tradidion that's been passed down through generations.

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I'm very positive that the percentages DLT gave for professional snooker players are accurate, and that indeed you will not find a snooker coach that will teach it any other way. There might be different emphasis on which fingers to use as the main grip (thumb + index, or thumb + middle, etc.), whether to actually pay attention to the unfurling or just let it happen natually, and so on.

DTL said:

The goal is to pull the cue back on a straight line as level as possible. Without unfurling the back 2 or 3 fingers on the backswing you either get stuck or get unwanted rise in the butt of the cue. On the forward stroke the fingers just simply close back where they were. This happens best with looser grip pressures.

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I also agree that most fingers need to unfurl when cueing in a straight line (piston style), simply because of the anatomy of the human hand. A video says more than a thousand words:

https://youtu.be/NtpV0qDGRqw?t=217 (best watched in 0.25 x slow motion).

Pay attention to his knuckles in relation to the line of the cue during address (tip at the cue ball). As he pulls back, the knuckles rotate clockwise from the camera's point of view, the little finger knuckle goes upwards. He has to unfurl his back fingers in order to keep the cue in a straight line. When he follows through, his knuckles rotate counter-clockwise, so he lets his index finger unfurl for the same reason. The only way to keep all fingers on the cue exactly the same during the entire stroke, would be to raise the butt of the cue in a pendulum style. And you will not find a snooker player with a pendulum stroke.

Test it for yourself before refuting it: Take your cue, put it firmly against your chest and chin in order to prevent it going upwards, and try a few deliberately slow and long backstrokes. Longer than you would normally for this test. Notice how your elbow has to drop and the majority of your grip fingers have to unfurl. Try gripping mainly with thumb+index, and also thumb+middle finger. You'll notice that all other fingers will unfurl naturally.

One of the longest and smoothest strokes I've seen is Chris Mellings'. He has a snooker background, but got rid of the chin-on-cue and chest-to-cue parts. Watch how his fingers unfurl to the extreme: https://youtu.be/jh3K-Nz7w-4?t=552

deraltefritz said:

I'm very positive that the percentages DLT gave for professional snooker players are accurate, and that indeed you will not find a snooker coach that will teach it any other way. There might be different emphasis on which fingers to use as the main grip (thumb + index, or thumb + middle, etc.), whether to actually pay attention to the unfurling or just let it happen natually, and so on.



I also agree that most fingers need to unfurl when cueing in a straight line (piston style), simply because of the anatomy of the human hand. A video says more than a thousand words:

https://youtu.be/NtpV0qDGRqw?t=217 (best watched in 0.25 x slow motion).

Pay attention to his knuckles in relation to the line of the cue during address (tip at the cue ball). As he pulls back, the knuckles rotate clockwise from the camera's point of view, the little finger knuckle goes upwards. He has to unfurl his back fingers in order to keep the cue in a straight line. When he follows through, his knuckles rotate counter-clockwise, so he lets his index finger unfurl for the same reason. The only way to keep all fingers on the cue exactly the same during the entire stroke, would be to raise the butt of the cue in a pendulum style. And you will not find a snooker player with a pendulum stroke.

Test it for yourself before refuting it: Take your cue, put it firmly against your chest and chin in order to prevent it going upwards, and try a few deliberately slow and long backstrokes. Longer than you would normally for this test. Notice how your elbow has to drop and the majority of your grip fingers have to unfurl. Try gripping mainly with thumb+index, and also thumb+middle finger. You'll notice that all other fingers will unfurl naturally.

One of the longest and smoothest strokes I've seen is Chris Mellings'. He has a snooker background, but got rid of the chin-on-cue and chest-to-cue parts. Watch how his fingers unfurl to the extreme: https://youtu.be/jh3K-Nz7w-4?t=552

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They really don't need to 'ufurl,' as you say when the pressure point is on the front of the hand. They just need to naturally release. They can still remain lightly on the cue as the arm moves through. The exaggerated open- close thing is not a requirement for a straight stroke, nor is it in any way a natural movement.

FranCrimi said:

They really don't need to 'ufurl,' as you say when the pressure point is on the front of the hand. They just need to naturally release. They can still remain lightly on the cue as the arm moves through. The exaggerated open- close thing is not a requirement for a straight stroke, nor is it in any way a natural movement.

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Then we don't disagree on anything

You're right, it should be a natural release, not exaggerated. I think the way Shaun Murphy (first video) does it looks very natural though. Chris Melling, well.. does look exaggerated. But he's cueing nicely none the less.

I merely tried to say that it's impossible to keep all fingers exactly the same way on the cue throughout the backstroke with a piston style. The word "unfurl" I've just borrowed from a previous post in this thread (it is, after all, not my mother's tongue). I would use open/close instinctively.

deraltefritz said:

Then we don't disagree on anything

You're right, it should be a natural release, not exaggerated. I think the way Shaun Murphy (first video) does it looks very natural though. Chris Melling, well.. does look exaggerated. But he's cueing nicely none the less.

I merely tried to say that it's impossible to keep all fingers exactly the same way on the cue throughout the backstroke with a piston style. The word "unfurl" I've just borrowed from a previous post in this thread (it is, after all, not my mother's tongue). I would use open/close instinctively.

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What you're saying now is different from what you wrote earlier. Also if you don't mean intentionally opening and closing the hand, then you shouldn't use the open-close term because that is an intentional movement and not a natural one.

I still don't support playing with the first three fingers as a style of play, so in that respect, we disagree.

FranCrimi said:

What you're saying now is different from what you wrote earlier. Also if you don't mean intentionally opening and closing the hand, then you shouldn't use the open-close term because that is an intentional movement and not a natural one.

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What term should be used then? Unfurling seems to be the wrong one too. The back fingers certainly transform from a "closed"/"curled/wrapped around the cue" state to a more "opened"/ straigh ish state. At least when you do it like Shaun Murphy.

FranCrimi said:

I still don't support playing with the first three fingers as a style of play, so in that respect, we disagree.

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No, we don't. Simply because I do not support or endorse any particular way of holding a cue over other ways to hold a cue. If it came across like that, I hope it does no more. Personally, I lean towards the idea that various ways can work, and may or may not depend on the individual player. We may disagree on that. But that was never the point I wanted to make.

So I certainly do not disagree with you on which fingers to put emphasis on. You would most probably beat me playing with the pinky of your weaker hand.

Have a great day!

deraltefritz said:

What term should be used then? Unfurling seems to be the wrong one too. The back fingers certainly transform from a "closed"/"curled/wrapped around the cue" state to a more "opened"/ straigh ish state. At least when you do it like Shaun Murphy.


No, we don't. Simply because I do not support or endorse any particular way of holding a cue over other ways to hold a cue. If it came across like that, I hope it does no more. Personally, I lean towards the idea that various ways can work, and may or may not depend on the individual player. We may disagree on that. But that was never the point I wanted to make.

So I certainly do not disagree with you on which fingers to put emphasis on. You would most probably beat me playing with the pinky of your weaker hand.

Have a great day!

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If you're looking for a term or word, then consider the one I used in an earlier post: 'release.' You can release pressure without completely letting go.

DTL said:

I'd say probably 95% of the best cueist (probably 99.9% of top snooker players) in the world do just that. All snooker instructors teach this.

The goal is to pull the cue back on a straight line as level as possible. Without unfurling the back 2 or 3 fingers on the backswing you either get stuck or get unwanted rise in the butt of the cue. On the forward stroke the fingers just simply close back where they were. This happens best with looser grip pressures.

Name a top 25 player and I can probably show video evidence.

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Have to agree Dick. I don't know about the percentage but what I do know is that many of the very best players in the world do this. When the best do something a certain way maybe it makes sense to pay attention.

sparkle84 said:

Have to agree Dick. I don't know about the percentage but what I do know is that many of the very best players in the world do this. When the best do something a certain way maybe it makes sense to pay attention.

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Yep. And a lot of players in the U.S. play with their pinkie off the cue as well. Some pretty great players, too.

FranCrimi said:

Yep. And a lot of players in the U.S. play with their pinkie off the cue as well. Some pretty great players, too.

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I do think there's a difference between basically each and every professional player on the snooker tour (from Europe, Asia, North America, Australia, ...) having a particular thing in common, compared to some pretty great players having some other particular thing in common. No matter what that particular thing may be.

deraltefritz said:

I do think there's a difference between basically each and every professional player on the snooker tour (from Europe, Asia, North America, Australia, ...) having a particular thing in common, compared to some pretty great players having some other particular thing in common. No matter what that particular thing may be.

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I don't question that at all. What I do question is whether that thing in common is more of a tradition passed down from one generation to another and whether that thing in common is really necessary. If you're a serious student of the game, you should be questioning these things, regardless of how many great players do them.