APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
And yet they blame the league for this issue....

In a handicapped league, there will always be someone trying to manipulate the system. Then number of times they get it right, in my opinion, is much higher than the number of times they get it wrong. Yet people want to jump on a flourishing and self sustaining league that actually promotes the game, because ONE customer got a little bent out of shape. SMH.

One team suspended. What about all of the other teams that managed to make it through the event unscathed?

The point of it is that the punishment for that one team is extreme.. Would you also say:

"The death penalty is right FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more times than it is wrong... So when it is wrong, then... Oh well?"

It should be ZERO tolerance for mistakes from the APA, in the case where the penalty is forfeiture of all monies won, and a 2 year ban.

That anyone would support the APA in this particular case when the APA SAID it didn't believe they were cheating.. Is like supporting a death penalty where there is the chance, however small, that the murderer is innocent.

The idea that the APA deems them to not have been cheating, but they got a two year ban, is completely and utterly ridiculous.
 

Bic D

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
GF played in the ladies division. I played Masters. So, this had no bearing on our brackets. Next theory?

I know a lot of the refs at the event. I date one of them. So I know a lot more of the background story than most people posting.


The fact that you know a lot of the refs and you date a ref gives you every reason to be biased against the team that got suspended, yes?
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
The point of it is that the punishment for that one team is extreme.. Would you also say:

"The death penalty is right FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR more times than it is wrong... So when it is wrong, then... Oh well?"

It should be ZERO tolerance for mistakes from the APA, in the case where the penalty is forfeiture of all monies won, and a 2 year ban.

That anyone would support the APA in this particular case when the APA SAID it didn't believe they were cheating.. Is like supporting a death penalty where there is the chance, however small, that the murderer is innocent.

The idea that the APA deems them to not have been cheating, but they got a two year ban, is completely and utterly ridiculous.

Russ, this is....as far as I know, the first time ever in APA history, that 5 players on the same team were flagged, then raised. The first time. Ever.

In the pool world, they’re serial killers. Not just a murderer.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
GF played in the ladies division. I played Masters. So, this had no bearing on our brackets. Next theory?

Don't play dumb. She is involved as a referee, and as such, she has a motivation to not see the refereeing badmouthed, whether the referees are competent or not.

You come across very much as an APA apologist. I haven't seen one comment where you reached across the aisle and even hinted that there is room for any improvement whatsoever..
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m not the one picking fights. There is a mob slagging what happened. I know a lot of the refs at the event. I date one of them. So I know a lot more of the background story than most people posting.
Were cool man. It's just been my experience that this current handicapping system does not make the game as equitable and fun as the APA wants to make it seem.

I am merely a spectator and I do not have the unenviable task of trying to fairly handicap a teeming mass of pool players all with different agendas, ethos and interest levels. I certainly don't envy the task of dealing with the shenanigans they have to deal with on top of that.

I also understand that one side of the story is being presented here.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
I know a lot of the refs at the event. I date one of them. So I know a lot more of the background story than most people posting.


The fact that you know a lot of the refs and you date a ref gives you every reason to be biased against the team that got suspended, yes?

You need to hold your breath just a little longer.

I played MASTERS (no h/c)
She played LADIES (no dudes)
She wasn’t working this event (no bib)
I have no personal interest in seeing anyone get banned. In fact, it pains me to see it. Because of BS like these threads.

No collusion, dude. Try again.
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Russ, this is....as far as I know, the first time ever in APA history, that 5 players on the same team were flagged, then raised. The first time. Ever.

In the pool world, they’re serial killers. Not just a murderer.

Wellll.. Seems like the APA ought to do something that makes it a lot harder to possibly sandbag, so innocent players never get thrown out with the bathwater, such as... Oh... I don't know.. Set up/use a national rating system that feeds in all data from a league, plus lots of data from local/regional/national events... So it's just very very very very unlikely that a team could have 5 innocently underrated teammembers.

I heard a certain competing league has done so, and doesn't have NEARLY the number of sandbagging accusations against it as the APA does?

Funny how that works, innit? The sandbagging problem is EASILY fixable by the APA... If they wanted to fix it.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Were cool man. It's just been my experience that this current handicapping system does not make the game as equitable and fun as the APA wants to make it seem.

I am merely a spectator and I do not have the unenviable task of trying to fairly handicap a teeming mass of pool players all with different agendas, ethos and interest levels. I certainly don't envy the task of dealing with the shenanigans they have to deal with on top of that.

I also understand that one side of the story is being presented here.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Just because I might differ with your opinion, doesn’t mean we aren’t cool. Imagine us having this debate at a bar with a beer in front of us. Some good natured shots, along with some banter while we make our points.

I get Russ coming to Sean’s defense. Heck, I’ve chatted with Sean since the RSB days. It pained me to find out he was affiliated with the team. But, facts are facts. We aren’t talking about two random players arbitrarily going up. 5 players of 7 got bumped. That’s a little hard to believe that the entire team just “stepped up”, while every other team folded like lawn chairs. See my point?
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Just because I might differ with your opinion, doesn’t mean we aren’t cool. Imagine us having this debate at a bar with a beer in front of us. Some good natured shots, along with some banter while we make our points.

I get Russ coming to Sean’s defense. Heck, I’ve chatted with Sean since the RSB days. It pained me to find out he was affiliated with the team. But, facts are facts. We aren’t talking about two random players arbitrarily going up. 5 players of 7 got bumped. That’s a little hard to believe that the entire team just “stepped up”, while every other team folded like lawn chairs. See my point?


No, I don't. No even a little bit. Every single tournament, there is ALWAYS one player or team that "steps up" more than the others. They're called the winners of the event.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Or the world's worst cheaters.

Ok. Let’s just go to extremes. You’re either a saint, or the devil.

Rules can be broken unintentionally. Let me ask you this: was your team under ranked, was every other team over ranked, or did you just get lucky?

As I said, I think this is the first time ever in the long history of the APA, that a team had 5 players raised.

One other question. Do you think you still could have won with the proper handicaps as assigned by the APA at the WQ?
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
No, I don't. No even a little bit. Every single tournament, there is ALWAYS one player or team that "steps up" more than the others. They're called the winners of the event.

No problem, Russ. One player, sure. The whole team stepped up. For multiple rounds. I guess you think the APA just tosses suspensions around for shits and grins :)
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
I can only speak to the match I saw in the top 16. Yeah I saw of their opponents fold like lawn chairs.

An 8 misses a straight in shot on the one ball about a diamond and a half from the corner, with an easy path to the two. He also scratched on the break twice in the first 3 racks, giving their 6 BIH with a target rich environment.

It wasn't just lawn chairs, it was digging graves.

Just because I might differ with your opinion, doesn’t mean we aren’t cool. Imagine us having this debate at a bar with a beer in front of us. Some good natured shots, along with some banter while we make our points.

I get Russ coming to Sean’s defense. Heck, I’ve chatted with Sean since the RSB days. It pained me to find out he was affiliated with the team. But, facts are facts. We aren’t talking about two random players arbitrarily going up. 5 players of 7 got bumped. That’s a little hard to believe that the entire team just “stepped up”, while every other team folded like lawn chairs. See my point?
 

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the apa really said that they did not believe the offending team was cheating, then it would stand to reason that the suspended team was simply penalized for showing the apa that their system is flawed? Or that their system works?

You can tell us now you *think* we got it wrong and all is fine, but if your play shows us we were wrong your going to be in big trouble?

That's as fun and as equitable system as I've ever heard of.

I do understand that the captain didn't do his due diligence, and he could have declared that his players were currently, *in his opinion*, playing at higher levels than the infallible computer had them at. I would posit that they were playing matches the whole time that they were "improving". Those were taken into account, were they not?

Not doing so doesn't make him a cheater. Should he assume that his knowledge trumps the system they have in place for this very reason?

The only reason someone would have to declare their players better than the computer has them rated at is if they knew that the players were purposely gaming the system in the first place.

The APA already said they didn't believe this was the case.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
If the apa really said that they did not believe the offending team was cheating, then it would stand to reason that the suspended team was simply penalized for showing the apa that their system is flawed? Or that their system works?

You can tell us now you *think* we got it wrong and all is fine, but if your play shows us we were wrong your going to be in big trouble?

That's as fun and as equitable system as I've ever heard of.

I do understand that the captain didn't do his due diligence, and he could have declared that his players were currently, *in his opinion*, playing at higher levels than the infallible computer had them at. I would posit that they were playing matches the whole time that they were "improving". Those were taken into account, were they not?

Not doing so doesn't make him a cheater. Should he assume that his knowledge trumps the system they have in place for this very reason?

The only reason someone would have to declare their players better than the computer has them rated at is if they knew that the players were purposely gaming the system in the first place.

The APA already said they didn't believe this was the case.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk

Ok. So, let’s say I have a team that coasts through the regional circuit. We’re drinking and having a good time. We have ranking established based on that lax attitude. You know, everyone else is doing the same thing, right? We get to regionals, decide to cut out the booze, and pay more attention. We qualify for Vegas. We decide to practice for 2 months to get ready. I really work with my 2s and 3s. We get to Vegas, and start blowing through the competition at our current ranks that are based on booze ball for 3 sessions. We win the event.

Fair, according to you?
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Something tells me their whole area was most likely under rated. Sean is one of my favorite posters and he seems like a man of integrity so when I hear he was playing 8 ball as a 6 it makes me scratch my head a bit.
 

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
Something tells me their whole area was most likely under rated. Sean is one of my favorite posters and he seems like a man of integrity so when I hear he was playing 8 ball as a 6 it makes me scratch my head a bit.

Sean is a 100 ball runner at 14.1. There’s no way in hell he’s a 6.
 

BasementDweller

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wasn't finished....

So either Sean's game isn't as good as I though or his area is just out of whack. I believe he has run over 100 balls several times. I don't know any 100 ball runners that aren't 7's. So my hunch is these guys were on a bit of a rating island and what happened to them was due to this.
 
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