Barry Stark - Snooker Coach.. and elbow drop

Do world champions drop there elbow?
:scratchhead:

Oh boy. So here is my take on the notorious elbow drop.

First of all, it's not necessary. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm simply saying that all of the shots you would ever play in a real match can be done without dropping the elbow. I think part of the reason people do drop their elbow is that to a lot of people. It feels more relaxed. This is probably more to do with those people not knowing how to shoot properly with a pinned elbow.

At the end of the day it's what works best for the individual. Here's a test you can try next time you're at the table. It might work best if you record yourself or have someone watch you shoot. I would also suggest doing each test on a different day.

Distance between CB and OB should be about 3-4 diamonds.

1. Shoot 10 corner to corner STOP shots. - CB must stop with no sideways movement or spin.
2. Shoot 10 corner to corner FOLLOW shots. - CB must follow OB and scratch
3. Shoot 10 corner to corner DRAW shots. - CB must scratch in the pocket from which you are shooting.

Do the first series while trying to keep your elbow as still as possible. Then do the series of shots again, but this time, actually let your elbow drop. See which method yields the highest percentage of successful shots.

pt109 said:

Do world champions drop there elbow?
:scratchhead:

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Just a hunch...but I'm gonna say the success of any world champion cueist has more to do with what's in between their ears (and a little luck) rather than whether or not they drop their elbow.

BeiberLvr said:

Oh boy. So here is my take on the notorious elbow drop.

First of all, it's not necessary. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm simply saying that all of the shots you would ever play in a real match can be done without dropping the elbow. I think part of the reason people do drop their elbow is that to a lot of people. It feels more relaxed. This is probably more to do with those people not knowing how to shoot properly with a pinned elbow.

At the end of the day it's what works best for the individual. Here's a test you can try next time you're at the table. It might work best if you record yourself or have someone watch you shoot. I would also suggest doing each test on a different day.

Distance between CB and OB should be about 3-4 diamonds.

1. Shoot 10 corner to corner STOP shots. - CB must stop with no sideways movement or spin.
2. Shoot 10 corner to corner FOLLOW shots. - CB must follow OB and scratch
3. Shoot 10 corner to corner DRAW shots. - CB must scratch in the pocket from which you are shooting.

Do the first series while trying to keep your elbow as still as possible. Then do the series of shots again, but this time, actually let your elbow drop. See which method yields the highest percentage of successful shots.

Click to expand...

I drop my elbow on the follow shot...to keep the tip up.

BeiberLvr said:

Oh boy. So here is my take on the notorious elbow drop.

First of all, it's not necessary. Now, that doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm simply saying that all of the shots you would ever play in a real match can be done without dropping the elbow. I think part of the reason people do drop their elbow is that to a lot of people. It feels more relaxed. This is probably more to do with those people not knowing how to shoot properly with a pinned elbow.

At the end of the day it's what works best for the individual. Here's a test you can try next time you're at the table. It might work best if you record yourself or have someone watch you shoot. I would also suggest doing each test on a different day.

Distance between CB and OB should be about 3-4 diamonds.

1. Shoot 10 corner to corner STOP shots. - CB must stop with no sideways movement or spin.
2. Shoot 10 corner to corner FOLLOW shots. - CB must follow OB and scratch
3. Shoot 10 corner to corner DRAW shots. - CB must scratch in the pocket from which you are shooting.

Do the first series while trying to keep your elbow as still as possible. Then do the series of shots again, but this time, actually let your elbow drop. See which method yields the highest percentage of successful shots.

Click to expand...

I see your point here.
I did a similar test back in 2015, after a couple of lessons with Lee Brett who hails from a snooker background, I took an entire year to work on fundamentals and rebuild from stance and stroke.

I did similar tests from what you were suggesting and I found for myself I just got much more action on the cue ball and accuracy from incorporating elbow drop.

In this video from a couple of years ago, was an example of how I worked elbow drop to deliver a level cue (especially on extreme follow shots).

https://youtu.be/NzmWf8krh-g

In the video, I was deliberately focusing on hitting high inside to go 3-4 rails back while firing at 4.25" pockets. Thus was just one of the many examples of shots I could not replicate with a pinned elbow.

And yes, I agree, when will a 4 rail position shot ever be required in a match like the one in the video. Very rarely. And many shots needed to get through a rack of 9 ball can be done witha pinned elbow. However, after a year and finding elbow drop to now be in my natural mechanics, I am playing more correctly with patterns in letting my stroke out, whereas before when I shot with a pinned elbow, I found myself being limited in not just my options, but my approach to the game.

Another example is the OB digicue. I've achieved success in the pro setting with elbow drop and when switching back to pinned elbow, I was getting horrid results, but that's not scientific because it could just be me.

So all in all, this is just my two cents.

pt109 said:

I drop my elbow on the follow shot...to keep the tip up.

Click to expand...

God forbid someone mentions upstroking technique or clearning the cue.
It could create a ''World War''.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. It all depends on your anatomy. I'm a natural elbow dropper, but that doesn't mean I have to drop it for every shot--it is silly to drop the elbow for a soft roll shot and the like. The important thing to note is that dropping the elbow requires good timing, which means good coordination. Here's some snippets of Ronnie O'Sullivan dropping the elbow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw29ZGZmvQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2-aYYohP7Y
https://youtu.be/9j842uAOV08?t=79
https://youtu.be/9j842uAOV08?t=186
https://youtu.be/9j842uAOV08?t=457
https://youtu.be/GMKerrXVCXU?t=1348
https://youtu.be/GMKerrXVCXU?t=500

Notice that his elbow drops only AFTER he strikes the cue ball. The reason people who employ an elbow drop miss, and miss spectacularly, is because they drop the elbow prematurely (ie mistiming). Ronnie has a gift for timing, and I daresay he is able to execute this technique better than anyone.

On the other side of the spectrum, you have Judd Trump who can still execute power shots by barely dropping his elbow, if at all.

https://youtu.be/l2xSj4AWIsY?t=169
https://youtu.be/pyURthXsNFs?t=88
https://youtu.be/pyURthXsNFs?t=100
https://youtu.be/l2xSj4AWIsY?t=112

O'SulliReyes said:

....snip...

Notice that his elbow drops only AFTER he strikes the cue ball. The reason people who employ an elbow drop miss, and miss spectacularly, is because they drop the elbow prematurely (ie mistiming). Ronnie has a gift for timing, and I daresay he is able to execute this technique better than anyone.

Click to expand...

Your first two links in slow motion show that Ronnie is moving his elbow all over the place BEFORE the tip strikes the CB. Up, left, right, down. Every which way. (I didn't get to the other ones yet).

These elbow drop threads are all the same. Every pro under the sun moves his elbow all over the place. Only maybe the women play with a pinned elbow. And the women now from Asia that are dominating, play like men, by moving their elbows too.

ShortBusRuss said:

Oh myyyyy! Barry Stark, quite possibly the greatest snooker coach ever, analyzes the elbow drop in Ronnie O' Sullivan's stroke, and suggests this is the optimal stroke, if your body mechanics allow it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5QrJGUocAo

Flame on!!!

Short Bus Russ

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1:57- "You better make sure you get through it straight. Because if you don't, you are going to miss."

2:14- He's wrong about tip contact time.

2:30- He states that if no elbow drop works for you, then it is correct for you.

3:07- Here starts a little speech that any one with an IQ over 3 should be able to see right through. Sorry, but he sounds like a kid making excuses that the parent would laugh at. He obviously didn't spend any time thinking this part through.

Loved how his example looked more like McCready than a pendulum stroker like Judd Trump. (who he didn't even mention)

There should be a statistical record about how many times this issue has been brought up here...
Happy new year to all fellow az members!!
Petros

Discussions about stroke- no matter what style talk about can be really fun, informative, and depending on the reason of the discussion very helpful.

ONce a person joins the discussion, which would be lookin for the holy gral....the discussion is worthless- ending in flame war.
once a person joins the discussion who just want to state what is right an wrong....same type of worthless discussion.


If I have someone, who just begins too play pool-- i try to explain, what the goal is (of a stroke). What can be helpful to make it much more repeatable-
The physically given things (height, is he sporty, age etc) are also very important!

Just because I am one of those "SPF" Instructors does not mean, that i would teach it nonstop all the time. (the pendulum stroke).
And I am 100% sure, that every other qualified and expirienced instructor is on the same line.

If you have someone, who is able to deliver a repeatable straight stroke- which allows him to HIT CUEBALL where he wants to---and furthermore is able to send it from A to B (where he wants it to go of course, lol).....then you should find no instructor, who would try to fix it. Never!

Textbook Stroke? Maybe a hand full in the pro circus.

No matter if you teach someone a Pendulum stroke, a Piston Stroke-- or a mix of it (what is in my opinion the most found outthere)-- what an important point and job is:

To find HIS PERSONAL SWEET SPOT- which needs a perfect physical setup based on his physical given abilites-- to put every part of his body which matters in the right position.....to give him the best opportunity to deliver a repeatable straight stroke.

Key is: the player has to understand, that he MUST be able to deliver the cue as straight as possible-- and find his way to achieve that. And to do this on your own is terrible difficult.


a smooth and straight stroke to everyone

ShortBusRuss said:

Andddddddd... He's coached some of the top snooker talent in the world, whilst Americans are shitting ourselves at the Mosconi Cup for lack of basic fundamentals.

Yeah... I know who I'ma trust, fams......

Short Bus Russ

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Russ, just because he is a top coach does not equate to him never being wrong. Mike Sigel still thinks you can't transfer spin to an ob. Doesn't make him right though.

Russ, bottom line is this- if dropping your elbow works for you, that is fine. But quit grasping at straws to find an excuse to feel better about dropping your elbow when deep down inside you feel you shouldn't drop it. You jumped on the top snooker coach stating that he prefers to drop and knew you found a "legitament" source to justify what you want to do. Just try not to toss your critical thinking skills out the window when doing so.

Joe Davis liked to drop his elbow

https://youtu.be/H5QrJGUocAo?t=86

I said this in another thread. Ronnie's elbow doesn't drop until after the cue tip has struck the cue ball. What the elbow or any other part of his body does after the cue tip has struck the cue ball is 100% meaningless. If Ronnie sprouts wings and flies around the pool hall after the cue tip strikes the cue ball it has zero impact on where the ball goes.

Part 2 of the conversation is what works for one person might not work for another person. Proof of that is how many different stances and strokes world class players have. A great example is Oliver Ortmann, world champion 9 ball and multiple world champion straight pool player. He shoots sidearm - the most exaggerated sidearm stroke I can think of in a top player - and it works for him.

In a different sport baseball I saw an interview with former MLB player Willie McGee who won a batting title and MVP. He said early in his career as soon as he reached the major leagues a coach tried to change his stance and he thanked another Cardinal coach Dave Ricketts for intervening on his behalf and telling the other coach to "leave that boy alone". He was good enough at hitting a baseball to make it to the major leagues and saw no need to change - and he was right.

Therefore Ronnie's elbow doesn't drop until after the cue tip has struck the cue ball so it doesn't matter and even if his elbow did drop earlier the balls go in the pocket so it still doesn't matter.