Pool's image. Colorful versus professional...

sbk510

Registered
I was reading this...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...5&share_tid=51725&share_fid=2711&share_type=t

...and it made me think of how hockey is viewed. In hockey, everyone knows there are fights and scuffles, and hockey knows it will never get to be as well-sponsored as tennis or golf. I think pool should embrace the "hockey-type" followers and just go with It. Pool will never be golf but it could be adored like hockey just well. Discuss. :)

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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was reading this...

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...5&share_tid=51725&share_fid=2711&share_type=t

...and it made me think of how hockey is viewed. In hockey, everyone knows there are fights and scuffles, and hockey knows it will never get to be as well-sponsored as tennis or golf. I think pool should embrace the "hockey-type" followers and just go with It. Pool will never be golf but it could be adored like hockey just well. Discuss. :)

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Pool will NEVER fully shake its back-room gambling reputation. So, why run from it? Embrace it to an extent. I think there's plenty of room for both the buttoned-down pro game AND the match-up gambling side of pool. With Vegas becoming a major pool venue both can/should co-exist. My $.02, nothing more.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
Pool's image carries enough negative connotation. I don't think embracing the negativity would be helpful in this case.

And unless the actual suggestion is fist fights and penalty boxes, I'm not even sure where you'd go with this.

It's history/origination is a Gentleman/Ladies game. Not that it still is, nor need it be.
 

DelawareDogs

The Double Deuce…
Silver Member
Pool will NEVER fully shake its back-room gambling reputation. So, why run from it? Embrace it to an extent. I think there's plenty of room for both the buttoned-down pro game AND the match-up gambling side of pool. With Vegas becoming a major pool venue both can/should co-exist. My $.02, nothing more.

I agree.

Hey, poker made it bigger on TV than pool ever did, and poker isn't backroom gambling reputation.... it IS gambling.
 

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again, pool's image on the professional side can be better. It's just that no one here wants to take it by the horn and fix it. The pool hall banter, gambling and all other nonsense will always be there.

IMO the amateur side is fine as it is. The professional side is the one that needs fixing.
 

FeelDaShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I love the colorful side of pool. Being a pool player gives you a little street cred lol.

Mainstream things generally suck. I would hate to see pool halls filled with a bunch of rich yuppies like the golf courses. What's next, a pool hall ranger following everyone around making sure they're shooting fast enough and being respectful?

With that being said, it's a shame that the pro pool players aren't making much money. I find it hard to believe that pool's image has anything to do with it though. People just don't like to watch pool because it's not mainstream just like a million other sports.
Without interest from the general public there isn't going to be any big sponsors that will pay the bills. Simple as that.
 

briankenobi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can't have both. People cry about not having the money that other sports do but want to keep pool just as it is. You can't have both. Either be ok with the seedy nature of pool and be ok with most pros not being able to make a living, or overhaul the sport to be a legit pro sport that is treated like golf and other sports where the pros make good money. People saying pool can't be exciting on tv. Golf makes a lot of money and it is the same repetitive nature as pool is. Bottom line is, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the "seedy" and "colorful" nature of pool is currently just make belief for a bunch of nostalgics to cling on to anyway. in reality there is no hustling because internet and cell phones removed the last piece of anonymity. and smokey back rooms, naturally, disappeared with smoking indoors. the eccentrics who could shoot lights out with a parrot on one shoulder and a beer in the back pocket are only alive as stories on this forum

if some people want to sit around and reminisce, go ahead. meanwhile the rest of the world is beginning to treat pool as a sport. i saw a new pool club the other day; members checked in with chip card, clean tight tables, cameras at every table for game improvement, no smoking, no bangers. sterile. and i'm fine with that. i just want to see balls collide.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can't have both. People cry about not having the money that other sports do but want to keep pool just as it is. You can't have both. Either be ok with the seedy nature of pool and be ok with most pros not being able to make a living, or overhaul the sport to be a legit pro sport that is treated like golf and other sports where the pros make good money. People saying pool can't be exciting on tv. Golf makes a lot of money and it is the same repetitive nature as pool is. Bottom line is, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
Who says gambling has to be seedy? Do you have ANY idea how much is wagered on snooker?? Gillions and it hasn't hurt that game one bit. People will ALWAYS gamble on/at pool. Go to Vegas this spring-summer and you'll see both sides of the game in concert. Barry Hearn is involved in gambling on a lot of levels and look what snooker has done under his management. I don't see the need for any overhaul.
 

ceebee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who says gambling has to be seedy? Do you have ANY idea how much is wagered on snooker?? Gillions and it hasn't hurt that game one bit. People will ALWAYS gamble on/at pool. Go to Vegas this spring-summer and you'll see both sides of the game in concert. Barry Hearn is involved in gambling on a lot of levels and look what snooker has done under his management. I don't see the need for any overhaul.

I agree, I really think people would get behind a gambling scenario, but it would have to be on the up & up. Money is exciting & people like to hear & talk about money. Side betting in a tournament match, during the tournament, might the "Deal of the Day", but any "game throwing", throws pool off the ship in the lower Pacific.... forever.

All matches would have to POST the money, with no refunds possible. Details like this would have to be thought through & brainstormed too... There are lots of possibilities.

I started playing Pool at 14. At 15 I was gambling on my game... I'd still do it today, but my stamina has got up & gone.... People like excitement & money brings that to the game...
 

briankenobi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
garczar said:
Who says gambling has to be seedy? Do you have ANY idea how much is wagered on snooker?? Gillions and it hasn't hurt that game one bit. People will ALWAYS gamble on/at pool. Go to Vegas this spring-summer and you'll see both sides of the game in concert. Barry Hearn is involved in gambling on a lot of levels and look what snooker has done under his management. I don't see the need for any overhaul.

I didn't say gambling is seedy. People gamble on golf and snooker and the other sports. I don't have an issue with that. You mentioned Barry Hearn and snooker. Look at how snooker is different then american pool. It is presented as a professional sport with a professional image. The overhaul is to treat pool like a sport and not just a game played in bars.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
Just so I'm clear, pool needs to be like other professional sports?

Who can we get to beat or murder their wife or girlfriend, who can we get to deal drugs, who can we get that will get arrested for shooting themselves or somebody else is da club, who can we get to be involved in Dog fighting?

Shall I go on?

Billions of dollars are bet on sports every year, but god forbid somebody wins a few hundred in a pool room, oh my god, how dare they ruin the reputation of pool by betting.

Please listen to the nonsense in your head before typing it.
Jason
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
I agree, I really think people would get behind a gambling scenario, but it would have to be on the up & up. Money is exciting & people like to hear & talk about money. Side betting in a tournament match, during the tournament, might the "Deal of the Day", but any "game throwing", throws pool off the ship in the lower Pacific.... forever.

All matches would have to POST the money, with no refunds possible. Details like this would have to be thought through & brainstormed too... There are lots of possibilities.

I started playing Pool at 14. At 15 I was gambling on my game... I'd still do it today, but my stamina has got up & gone.... People like excitement & money brings that to the game...

Agree.

That's why poker is popular - if they were playing for free, there isn't a soul out there that would watch poker.

Stack a million on the table and all of a sudden its interesting.
Jason
 

AF pool guy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i saw a new pool club the other day; members checked in with chip card, clean tight tables, cameras at every table for game improvement, no smoking, no bangers. sterile. and i'm fine with that. i just want to see balls collide.



Sounds awesome, mind sharing where. I wonder if there’s a workable business plan for one like that in the US?


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vjmehra

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool's image carries enough negative connotation. I don't think embracing the negativity would be helpful in this case.

And unless the actual suggestion is fist fights and penalty boxes, I'm not even sure where you'd go with this.

It's history/origination is a Gentleman/Ladies game. Not that it still is, nor need it be.

pool-boxing...like chess-boxing ;-)
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem with pool is that there is a multitude of pool games, and most people, quite frankly, don't understand them.

Take artistic pool, for example. We pool aficionados may appreciate a good trick shot made by Florian Kohler, but mainstream folks who do not play pool won't think as much about it as we do, unless, of course, like Florian, there's a little color added to it. Florian makes trick shots fun because of his personality. He's not one of those blue-blooded robotic mutant players that we see on the international pool circuit today. Florian is good for pool.

Nobody is going to watch pool for hours and hours the way we do on live streams or in person because they do not understand how much talent it takes to run a sixpack with a break-and-run, break-and-run, break-and-run, or spend hours sweating safety battles in the strategic chess-like game of one-pocket.

Today's youth almost everywhere in the world want immediate gratification. Telephone and email communication is old-fashioned. They text. Spending the amount of time needed to learn how to play pool, much less which game they choose, is not immediate. That takes years of practice, and it's not fast coming.

I was looking at a few videos from the 1980s at American tournaments, and we had a hundred or so damn good players back then. Today? We have about a dozen that play full-time and travel the international tournament trail.

Ronnie O'Sullivan is a living legend in snooker. People hang onto his every word, and when he does interviews, he's witty and funny. He has personality. To date, in 2019, the pool world has nobody like this. We have some great players, but nobody knows who they are.

So then you have the purists versus the action enthusiasts. This is where the tension lies in pool. Neither group has a personality, so pool will be treated in USA at least like a recreational game, similar to croquet and badminton. Social shooters enjoy pool for recreation on the leagues, but they could care less who Jayson Shaw or Shane Van Boening or Alex Pagulayan is.
 

Hoser

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem with pool is that there is a multitude of pool games, and most people, quite frankly, don't understand them.

Take artistic pool, for example. We pool aficionados may appreciate a good trick shot made by Florian Kohler, but mainstream folks who do not play pool won't think as much about it as we do, unless, of course, like Florian, there's a little color added to it. Florian makes trick shots fun because of his personality. He's not one of those blue-blooded robotic mutant players that we see on the international pool circuit today. Florian is good for pool.

Nobody is going to watch pool for hours and hours the way we do on live streams or in person because they do not understand how much talent it takes to run a sixpack with a break-and-run, break-and-run, break-and-run, or spend hours sweating safety battles in the strategic chess-like game of one-pocket.

Today's youth almost everywhere in the world want immediate gratification. Telephone and email communication is old-fashioned. They text. Spending the amount of time needed to learn how to play pool, much less which game they choose, is not immediate. That takes years of practice, and it's not fast coming.

I was looking at a few videos from the 1980s at American tournaments, and we had a hundred or so damn good players back then. Today? We have about a dozen that play full-time and travel the international tournament trail.

Ronnie O'Sullivan is a living legend in snooker. People hang onto his every word, and when he does interviews, he's witty and funny. He has personality. To date, in 2019, the pool world has nobody like this. We have some great players, but nobody knows who they are.

So then you have the purists versus the action enthusiasts. This is where the tension lies in pool. Neither group has a personality, so pool will be treated in USA at least like a recreational game, similar to croquet and badminton. Social shooters enjoy pool for recreation on the leagues, but they could care less who Jayson Shaw or Shane Van Boening or Alex Pagulayan is.

Excellent observations, there are certainly cultural, generational changes that the average albeit older pool enthusiast/purist would rather not see in pool on TV but may make it more palatable for bringing people to the game or even enjoying it as a spectator. I think Mosconi cup is a good example of that. Certainly not your traditional pool tournament format but certainly fun to watch.

Time is certainly a factor. We live in an instant gratification world so spectator pool would have to be exciting in a shorter period of time. Perhaps the gambling aspect of it could be exploited. You could have relatively quick races with the stakehorse negotiating, similar to actual action but played up a bit for entertainment purposes. Also pitting older players against younger players for serious money. And... as we saw her recently a male-female match can draw attention as well. City versus city country versus country Strickland versus any young talented composed player......
 

pooladdict

no doubt about it
Silver Member
The weird thing here is that we have three cue sport diciplines, and you would think that three related diciplines are based on the same values.

But there are two very different approaches. In three cushion and snooker the focus is on sportmanship, call your own fouls and behave like a gentleman.

Then we have the pool society, where one camp wish it becomes more seedy, more gambling and more "personality" / less robotic, while the other camp want pool to come out of the gutter and become more like the two other.

How did pool end up like this and why are the other two diciplines so completely opposite of what many seems to wish for our sport?

One thing is quite clear: Three cushion and snooker attracts better sponsorship and therefore better money than pool. Pool staying in the gutter will not change that
 

Michael Andros

tiny balls, GIANT pockets
Silver Member
The weird thing here is that we have three cue sport diciplines, and you would think that three related diciplines are based on the same values.

But there are two very different approaches. In three cushion and snooker the focus is on sportmanship, call your own fouls and behave like a gentleman.

Then we have the pool society, where one camp wish it becomes more seedy, more gambling and more "personality" / less robotic, while the other camp want pool to come out of the gutter and become more like the two other.

How did pool end up like this and why are the other two diciplines so completely opposite of what many seems to wish for our sport?

One thing is quite clear: Three cushion and snooker attracts better sponsorship and therefore better money than pool. Pool staying in the gutter will not change that


R.E., Gambling = Seedy.

I've seen ( thousands of hours of it, actually ) plenty of plenty of people gambling at pool, for a LOT of money, spanning 5 decades, who were perfect gentleman ( and ladies ) , never did business, never cheated anyone, never got out of line or acted out. They gambled. They won. Or they lost. Then they went on their way...

Then, I've seen ( on too many occasions to even begin to list ) people who would sell their dead mother down the river to win a game of 8 ball. In league. For nada. For zilch. For not a dime. I've seen cues broken. I've seen overt and semi-covert cheating. I've seen screaming matches. I've seen fall-down drunks trying to play, not getting there ( go figure ), then blaming everyone and everything, except themselves, for not getting there.

Are there gamblers who cheat and scream and do business and fight and break cues? Of course. Are there league-sters who are perfect gentlemen, play by the rules, never complain, who you would trust driving your brand new Lamborghini? Certainly.

Branding pool as "seedy" simply due to gambling is a misnomer and a huge disservice to the pool world. And saying league pool, on its own merit, is what needs to represent pool, is also a misnomer and a huge disservice to the pool world. The issue is with the people who misrepresent pool. Period. Whether they're gambling or not gambling makes no difference whatsoever. The main issue is, there is/are no regulatory bodies in place to "regulate" the game. In golf, if a player say, spits into a golf cup/hole because, say, he's upset he just made an idiot of himself by 4-putting on world-wide tv ( yes, Sergio, you... ), he is fined a s**t-ton of money, vilified by every living human, left to twist in the wind until he apologizes and promises never to do it again. If he ( or she ) ever DOES do it again ( and for the record, at least on the PGA, it's never been done twice so this is speculation ), you can be fairly confident his ( or her ) playing days as a professional are over. And the process is pretty quick. Same with all pro sports. N FL. MLB. NBA. Across the board, by and large. There is no such thing in pool. for myriad reasons. Until there is that regulatory body, the fights will continue, the cues will be broken, the cheating will happen, the business will be done... and poor, dead mom will continue her long, lonely trip, floating down the river.

Now, would gambling be accepted by said regulatory entity? Probably not, due to many reasons, mainly being, it's not legal in most places. But the point here is, equating gambling with seedy is unfair and misses the mark by a country mile. I've seen a ton more seedy dive bars in which league is played than I've seen seedy dive pool rooms. And, yes, again, are there clean, nice, safe bars? Yes. Are there seedy, dive pool rooms. No. ( Ok, kidding... ) Yes. But, again, it's the people who are responsible. Not the venue. And not gambling, or absence of same.

Simply my .02
 
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skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
yea, gambling is not synonymous with pool being seedy. there's most likely people gambling on a game of billiards right at this moment, and people gamble on snooker all the time, both amateurs gambling on a match and fans putting large bets on pro tour matches. gambling in itself is not a problem.

gamesmanship, rack manipulation, sharking / stroke pulling, a-hole behaviour is the problem..
 
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