Splitting The Difference Aiming System

Neil · Dec 17, 2017

One Pocket John said:
I beg to differ.
Quote:
But here's what I did mean. You preset your hand and wrist in a precocked tuck or roll position and keep it that way.
End Quote

See post #83

John

John, you picked up on the T&R and missed the rest of it. Here it is again-

"I picked up on this in one of his videos and asked him if he knew he did it. It's in what is called an ARCHED wrist position with the hand tucked under and the wrist ARCHED or BOWED outward. A very strong locked wrist position. There's only one possible way to go from here which is roll it back to a neutral or bent position. He can't tuck any further because he's already there. It never changes from setup, to backstroke, to impact, to follow through."

Now, read his last sentence again. That is why I understood it differently. That Stan shoots every shot that way. You could be right. Maybe Dave will chime in on it.

edit: I see he already did. Thanks for the clarification Dave.

One Pocket John · Dec 17, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
I guess I should be the one to clear it up as far as what I posted. Here's what I posted:

" You preset your hand and wrist in a precocked tuck or roll position and keep it that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uar8s9kbqdI

I picked up on this in one of his videos and asked him if he knew he did it. It's in what is called an ARCHED wrist position with the hand tucked under and the wrist ARCHED or BOWED outward. A very strong locked wrist position. There's only one possible way to go from here which is roll it back to a neutral or bent position. He can't tuck any further because he's already there. It never changes from setup, to backstroke, to impact, to follow through.

He said yes, he knows he does it because a pro player told him about this setup and why it was the best and strong way to play. He said it took a while to get used to it after all the years of being neutral, but it's definitely the better way to stroke and play the game."

Neil said this: "Dave isn't talking about T&R here. He is talking about having the wrist pre-cocked through out the entire stroke with no neutral wrist as an aide to stability of the stroke."

Yes, I did say to PRESET your wrist in a tuck or rolled position but I did mean what Neil stated.

I guess it was confusing from my wording but Stan's grip and arched wrist is in a preset tuck position but he strokes straight through with no other turning or manipulation one way or another.

He can't TUCK any further. The only thing he could do to put a funky stroke on it would be to hinge or bend it the other way but he's very locked in.

Somebody pointed out to me that Dustin Johnson arches his left wrist in the golf swing and he's the #1 golfer in the world right now. He also drives it longer than anyone else on the PGA tour. It's a strong position.

Analysis of a typical wrist position:
http://golf-info-guide.com/golf-tips/pro-ignature-move/dustin-johnsons-bowed-left-wrist/

Dustin Johnson Strong Arched/Bowed Wrist in Action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3NbAAaEURI

Thanks for the clarification Dave.

John

SpiderWebComm · Dec 17, 2017

One Pocket John said:
Thanks for the clarification Dave.

John

Just to add to all of this now that you've become a "tuck and roller". When you do have a plan to use tuck or roll for a shot, do it from a NEUTRAL wrist position to go either way you desire. Curl under or curl up from there.

One Pocket John · Dec 17, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
Just to add to all of this now that you've become a "tuck and roller". When you do have a plan to use tuck or roll for a shot, do it from a NEUTRAL wrist position to go either way you desire. Curl under or curl up from there.

Got it.

John

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mirza · Dec 17, 2017

Soooo I managed to make shishkebob work for me!!!

I align half a tip inside on the CB and center of the tip to OB aimpoints, center, outside 1/4 and edge, and pivot PAST CCB to half a tip of outside english.

But since I'm not a fan of manual pivoting I also found a way of doing it without a manual pivot, so here it is, it might help someone too, its time I give something back, wonderful people of AZ billiards helped me so much.

Align inside 1/4 of the CB to OB aimpoints and then bend down and go straight to half a tip of outside english, works like a charm!!!

Now I only have one problem with this - can't use outside english all the time :thumbup:

One Pocket John · Dec 17, 2017

Mirza said:
Soooo I managed to make shishkebob work for me!!!

I align half a tip inside on the CB and center of the tip to OB aimpoints, center, outside 1/4 and edge, and pivot PAST CCB to half a tip of outside english.

But since I'm not a fan of manual pivoting I also found a way of doing it without a manual pivot, so here it is, it might help someone too, its time I give something back, wonderful people of AZ billiards helped me so much.

Align inside 1/4 of the CB to OB aimpoints and then bend down and go straight to half a tip of outside english, works like a charm!!!

Now I only have one problem with this - can't use outside english all the time :thumbup:

In BOLD. LOL

What I do from a standing position is get my CCB to COB. Set the "V" of my bridge hand on that line first while on my way down I pivot in the air down to the 1/4 OB (for example). I don't care for the manual pivots either.

I like to keep my bridge, head, shoulder and tip of my elbow all on the shot line. The above was the only thing I could think of that would allow for that to happen. Or, now that I think of it I guess I could pivot my whole body. Have to work on this.

Someone out there will probably come up with a better solution.

I'm gonna get it for this one, I do something like this using CTE. I place the bridge of my hand on the table at the apex ("<") of what I believe is the proper visual. And then when I begin to get further down I pivot in the air to CCB. Works for me, but I have been told I'm doing it wrong.

John

One Pocket John · Dec 17, 2017

Tuck at it's finest.

Watch his wrist. He has his hand pre-cocked to deliver the cue to a final tucked position.

https://youtu.be/zWpXs1OwtFY?t=555

In Part 3 (1of 3) Little Mike calls it swiping thru the CB. Later in the video he is clearly using BHE.

I like it.

John

SpiderWebComm · Dec 18, 2017

One Pocket John said:
Watch his wrist. He has his hand pre-cocked to deliver the cue to a final tucked position.

https://youtu.be/zWpXs1OwtFY?t=555

In Part 3 (1of 3) Little Mike calls it swiping thru the CB. Later in the video he is clearly using BHE.

I like it.

John

Your eye is getting sharper and sharper to pick up on these things now that you know what to look for. Great catch.

It's also something completely verboten among scientist type pool players or purist amateurs who only know straight lines and no manipulation. Straight lines, no manipulations won't be found among long time older pool players, pros, and especially Filipinos. Who would you rather listen to and emulate?

One Pocket John · Dec 18, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
Your eye is getting sharper and sharper to pick up on these things now that you know what to look for. Great catch.

It's also something completely verboten among scientist type pool players or purist amateurs who only know straight lines and no manipulation. Straight lines, no manipulations won't be found among long time older pool players, pros, and especially Filipinos. Who would you rather listen to and emulate?

I here ya.

For the last couple of months I have been working on the way Alex Pagulayan uses his cue. I think I have watched maybe 25 or 30 of his matches. I love the way he limits his back swing and then pushes the cue ball where he wants it to go.
He is ranked as the best all around player on the planet.

This is the player I'm going to emulate. Might take a year but its going to happen.

Have a good day, on my way out to shoot some.

John

SpiderWebComm · Dec 18, 2017

One Pocket John said:
I here ya.

For the last couple of months I have been working on the way Alex Pagulayan uses his cue. I think I have watched maybe 25 or 30 of his matches. I love the way he limits his back swing and then pushes the cue ball where he wants it to go.
He is ranked as the best all around player on the planet.
This is the player I'm going to emulate. Might take a year but its going to happen.

Have a good day, on my way out to shoot some.

John

I think there's a way to speed up the learning curve for what's highlighted above.

I know this guy who lives where you do named Tony. They call him either "Big Tony" or "Bull".

He breaks bones for a living. A quick snap of your stroking elbow and shoulder will immediately limit your stroke to become automatic and you won't have to force yourself for the limitation. Sometime shortcuts are worth it..:rotflmao::rotflmao:

Mirza · Dec 18, 2017

Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsG4KJbuLI&t=0s

BC21 · Dec 18, 2017

So if the OB is requires a 3/4 hit, about a 15° shot, to send it into the pocket, this guy would use center OB as the reference from CCB, then pivot the tip to the 3/4 spot on the OB, adding right spin? The shot could be made easily by aiming straight at the 3/4 aim point without the need for a "Split the Difference" pivot away from CCB.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 18, 2017

BC21 said:
So if the OB is requires a 3/4 hit, about a 15° shot, to send it into the pocket, this guy would use center OB as the reference from CCB, then pivot the tip to the 3/4 spot on the OB, adding right spin? The shot could be made easily by aiming straight at the 3/4 aim point without the need for a "Split the Difference" pivot away from CCB.

In a few cases it can but then it would be your system, not his. He has HIS system and either way on both methods it works.

One Pocket John · Dec 18, 2017

Mirza said:
Part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsG4KJbuLI&t=0s

Thanks Mirza.

John

BC21 · Dec 18, 2017

SpiderWebComm said:
In a few cases it can but then it would be your system, not his. He has HIS system and either way on both methods it works.

I can only get split the difference to work from close range, within a couple of feet from the pockets. Could be that I'm not on a bar box, and I also have a LD shaft so I'm probably not getting enough deflection to get the angle needed.

hogie583 · Dec 18, 2017

BC21 said:
I can only get split the difference to work from close range, within a couple of feet from the pockets. Could be that I'm not on a bar box, and I also have a LD shaft so I'm probably not getting enough deflection to get the angle needed.

The video i made was on a 9foot Gc 2. Almost everyshot had an outside spin on it of some sort. Although couple of shots came right down on the quarter. That was with a Vantage shaft truned down to 12.75 and a longer taper.

One Pocket John · Dec 18, 2017

Looking at a clock face. Look at the numbers only.

On the OB
0% would be 9 as your eyes see it. cue ball edge to OB edge

25% would be 11 to 7 center of cue shaft

50% would be 12 to 6 center of cue shaft

75% would be 1 to 5 center of cue shat

100% would be 3 as your eyes see it. cue ball edge to OB edge

This is shown to illustrate that there are further halves.
Such as 10 to 8 and 2 to 4

Splitting the difference 1 would be 11 to 7 or 1 to 5
Splitting the difference 2 would be 10 to 8 or 2 to 4
N0 difference would be 3 or 9
In all but two cases ( 9 and 3) the center of the shaft is pointed at these numbers. No spin is applied unless you choose to use spin.

John

BC21 · Dec 18, 2017

hogie583 said:
The video i made was on a 9foot Gc 2. Almost everyshot had an outside spin on it of some sort. Although couple of shots came right down on the quarter. That was with a Vantage shaft truned down to 12.75 and a longer taper.

I thought every shot with this StD should have some amount of outside spin, following Mike's instructions anyway. Do you suppose the longer taper and thinner diameter could be allowing for a little deflection in that Vantage shaft? I play with a Mezz and a WD700 shaft, not as deflection resistant as Predator, but it surely doesn't let me pocket balls from several feet using StD on my table. And it's not the 4 3/8 pockets -- the balls hit a good 2" from the pocket.

Shishkabob works fine due to a final center ball alignment. But I'd have to give a thumbs down to this method of spinning every shot with outside. Though I do think it's great practice for learning how much you can throw a ball with your particular cue.

SpiderWebComm · Dec 19, 2017

BC21 said:
I thought every shot with this StD should have some amount of outside spin, following Mike's instructions anyway. Do you suppose the longer taper and thinner diameter could be allowing for a little deflection in that Vantage shaft? I play with a Mezz and a WD700 shaft, not as deflection resistant as Predator, but it surely doesn't let me pocket balls from several feet using StD on my table. And it's not the 4 3/8 pockets -- the balls hit a good 2" from the pocket.

Sounds to me like you're having a similar problem with this system as you do with another system with three letters that will go unidentified. There's no way you should be missing by 2".

How do you apply outside spin on a shot normally? Do you use Parallel or BHE? Do you ever use BHE in normal play? If so, what do you do differently for the aim? What do you do differently if you're using parallel? Do you account for squirt in your alignment?

Shishkabob works fine due to a final center ball alignment. But I'd have to give a thumbs down to this method of spinning every shot with outside. Though I do think it's great practice for learning how much you can throw a ball with your particular cue.

What you give a thumbs down to, I give a thumbs up. Why?
because I've been doing this for a long time. Many years in fact. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, after learning Shiskebob from Hal over 10 years ago that has an inside tip placement pivoting to center, I then started experimenting with a center tip placement pivoting to outside.

The more you practice and play daily with them it becomes second nature and automatic.

You keep harping on spin, spin, spin. There isn't a whole helluva lot of spin the way you're exaggerating it to be. It can be controlled with speed and stroke especially if it's a center to center alignment pivoting to outside.

I don't care what aiming system a player is using or if he says he uses nothing at all like you do, the balls still have to collide at a certain place on each to produce the correct cut angle. The tangent line is then going to take care of where the CB goes from there.

Are you saying if the tangent line indicates a certain natural path after impact that might be a dead scratch you don't know how to alter it's path to avoid a scratch?

Maybe you should get with denwhit's guru, he's the greatest and can show you. But it'll be with contact points. Carry it over to this. Or, practice.

EDIT: I just thought of something. Maybe on his alignments the pivot is too much for your cue. Lets just start out with the center to center alignment shots with a pivot to 1/4. You might be better off measuring your pivot by TIP INCREMENTS and not even looking at the 1/4 spot on the OB. Aim center to center and do a 1/4 tip, 1/2 tip, or 3/4 tip.

If you go to POST #3 at the beginning of this thread, I talk about tip increments instead of a dead on automatic pivot to 1/4 ball. Read the post. I in fact do use TIP INCREMENTS. It will get to 1/4 ball with a full tip but most of the time I don't need to be there because it will overcut on lesser angles. I'm also certain I don't have the most perfect straight stroke either. It's not something I obsess about and keep trying for perfection. I've been playing long enough to know how to work with it and my tendencies.

When you do a full tip, where is it pointing? On the 1/4 spot of OB? Short? Or Long? Try tip increments and report back. On some minor cuts along the length of the table I might pivot to the outside 1 or 2 millimeters on the tip. More would overcut.

You're a bad influence on me. Look at the damn length of this POST!

Low500 · Dec 19, 2017

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Splitting The Difference Aiming System

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