Low Deflection Shafts - What's Your Opinion???

All shafts deflect. Arguments?

Once the basics of English are learned(can pocket well w English and get position) just using the same cue is the most important thing. Because all sticks deflect the fine tuning is learning ur own cue. Imo, doesn't matter how much it deflects.

I use a "claimed" low deflection shaft, doesn't mean I can't use a straight well tipped bar cue and do well. Miss percentage difference would be nominal I'm guessing, for a pro I bet it would get real slim.

strmanglr scott said:

Imo, doesn't matter how much it deflects.

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It can matter depending on how you compensate for squirt.

If you like to use backhand English (aim centerball and then pivot at the bridge to apply side spin), then higher squirt cues will probably be best for you.

If you like to just get down on the shot with your stick already angled to compensate for squirt (or if you like to use "fronthand" English), then lower squirt cues will probably be better.

pj
chgo

I still don't get it. Why all the hating or posts about "my shaft is good enough as I can compensate"? That's not really the topic here :embarrassed2:

Tell a Carom player to play with a regular (high squirt) shaft and he will look at you funnily. They are used to using very exact equipment as playing spin is their first nature.
Try maximum right spin and then hit a ball thin over the full table.
My carom playing has taken off since I've changed to a (only a lowly) Tiger LD shaft.

Of course you need to adjust your aiming as you will have to compensate less. That doesn't mean it's the fault of the shaft, it's your fault as you're used to aim funnily

@Patrick: Exactly, thank you!

I will never ever want to play with a RS shaft again.

Cheers,
M

CJ Wiley said:

When your stroke is highly developed the Deflection is reduced.

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At risk of repeating myself, nonsense.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

At risk of repeating myself, nonsense.

pj
chgo

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How is it nonsense? Of course with a better stroke will come less deflection because your impact point will be more defined. Meaning, less "off" hits, due to a stroke that is somewhat sloppy. And furthermore, why don't you show some respect to a professional player? He has accomplished more in pool by the time he hit his 20's, than you will during your entire lifetime. That is also NOT nonsense.

xXGEARXx said:

How is it nonsense? Of course with a better stroke will come less deflection because your impact point will be more defined. Meaning, less "off" hits, due to a stroke that is somewhat sloppy.

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That's not what he meant, but that's even worse nonsense. A bad stroke is just as likely to be closer to center as farther.

And furthermore, why don't you show some respect to a professional player? He has accomplished more in pool by the time he hit his 20's, than you will during your entire lifetime. That is also NOT nonsense.

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I'm not responding to "professional player" CJ (good for him); I'm responding to "doesn't know what he's talking about" CJ - we've seen a lot of him around here.

pj <- and whoever you are, of course
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

At risk of repeating myself, nonsense.

pj
chgo

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Like Neil, you are taking him literally from a 'book worm' perspective.

Players know what he means, especially if kept in full context vs a single statement taken out of context.

But... I agree with you that that could be very confusing to very many.

He should respond & expand on his meaning.

xXGEARXx said:

How is it nonsense? Of course with a better stroke will come less deflection because your impact point will be more defined. Meaning, less "off" hits, due to a stroke that is somewhat sloppy. And furthermore, why don't you show some respect to a professional player? He has accomplished more in pool by the time he hit his 20's, than you will during your entire lifetime. That is also NOT nonsense.

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:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Ron Swanson said:

Nope, STILL don't know what he's talking about. Stick the ball in the hole. It really isn't that difficult.

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He's trying to make a simple game so complicated that people will feel the need to buy the materials he sells.
slick marketing.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this.
Go ahead, do it.

Joegolf said:

I'm new here and certainly don't want any heat. I've just purchased CJ's DVDs and after 50 years of play I'm still trying to learn. Unfortunately I haven't been able to take the touch of inside to the tables yet but the DVDs have given me a renewed excitement for learning the game. I'll have my new table in a couple of weeks and I certainly am going to give CJs system a workout. His logic makes sense in every way. I'm glad that I bought the videos and believe they will take me to a better level.

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:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Hi Joe,

Have you spent 3 hours straight hitting every shot with TOI?

If not, I would recommend doing so even before you get the DVDs.

Like you, I had played for 45 years before reading of CJ's version of TOI here.

I think the 3 hours with nothing but TOI will be beneficial to you.

Good Luck with it & do take CJ up on any support as he gave me a tip in private that helped me to utilize it properly when I was having an initial issue.

Best Wishes,
Rick

ENGLISH! said:

Players know what he means...

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lol

pj <- please don't explain
chgo

Ok Here is my thought about "low deflection shaft":

1. Is it an improvement comparing to standard/traditional shaft => YES (Is a 2015 Ferrari better than a 2000 Ferrari => YES)
2. Will it make you play better? DEPENDS on you (Think about this: you use a 2015 Ferrari, a skilled racer uses a 2000 Ferrari, you guys both go in for a race (not in straight road) then who is going to win: a skilled racer for sure. But let's say if it was a skilled driver who use the 2015 Ferrari then he has a very good chance to win)
3. Should I buy it? YES if you have money and can afford it, buy it, practice and see what you will get.

Patrick Johnson said:

It can matter depending on how you compensate for squirt.

If you like to use backhand English (aim centerball and then pivot at the bridge to apply side spin), then higher squirt cues will probably be best for you.

If you like to just get down on the shot with your stick already angled to compensate for squirt (or if you like to use "fronthand" English), then lower squirt cues will probably be better.

pj
chgo

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It isn't about what cue does what. A player can consciously learn English. The deflection varies based on many things. The player will subconsciously learn their cue. Regardless if its LD or hd

I am one of those old school cuemakers who thinks tight grain maple has the over all best feel for playing pool and the cue ball action can be increased or decreased for a player by the right tip/ferrule combo. But the down side is that most cuemakers cannot use only tight grain maple or they would have to get rid of a huge percentage of their maple for other purposes besides shafts, as only a small percentage will have over 15 grain lines per inch. So the pie shaped laminates came along trying to get the same hit all the time that mother nature produces at its best in tight grain maple. The problem that was found is they were a little stiffer than natural tight grain maple, so they hollowed out the end of the shaft a little to make them play a little less stiff. They have managed to produce shafts that play fairly consistent and that is important. So I think as a whole laminated LD shafts are a good thing. But I still think natural tight grain maple grown in the right locations is the way to go when possible.

That is my take on it and I hope it is not offensive to anyone as it was not intended to be.

The only argument for regular shafts over ld shafts is familiarity. No sane person would start out playing pool saying "you know what would make this game better, if the ball would curve a lot when I try to hit it straight".

People who like having deflection are simply accustomed to it, that's all. People who say they "like the hit" of regular wood, again, are just used to that hit.

The fact of the matter is, ld shafts provide more consistent hits (wood is more consistent), way less deflection, and more margin for error.

These layers of abstraction people come up with, such as this "touch of inside" nonsense, where you are intentionally hitting spin every shot and not even aiming to hit center pocket, are ridiculous attempts to cope with how hard using spin is with deflection. If you aim center and miss center with a regular shaft, adding unwanted spin, deflection will have an impact. With my z3, it has absolutely none, and the amount of spin is so minimal, it has a negligible impact on throw or swerve.

I'm fortunate enough to be able to hit the shot as I see it, meaning just aiming object ball to pocket, only using spin when needed, without introducing anything else. No use for TOI.

The point is that these threads about regular vs ld shafts are pointless. People will like what they're accustomed to using, that's it. No logic or debate is going to prove one way or the other.

The fact of the matter is, ld shafts provide more consistent hits (wood is more consistent)

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How are the woods more consistent ?
The plies are not from the same board on all of them .


I made this reduced end-mass shaft for shess and giggles. Used one of my reject shafts at 13MM. Installed a thin-wall mason micarta ferrule ( the most durable ferrule I know of ) . No threads and big tenon. Used the best epoxy I know of. I wasn't concerned about glue ring under the ferrule. Turned it down to 12.5MM and drilled the front. Placed a carbon fiber liner then milk dud tip.
It does squirt less. The feel is reduced from regular shaft of course. The carbon fiber makes a funny sound but, you can only hear it in a really quiet room ( I couldn't hear it at the pool hall ).
I won't do them unless this one lasts a year on me.
I will probably never do them for overseas clients.

My thoughts on LD after playing regular, playing LD, going back to regular, while still having a couple LD shafts around....

LD shafts work....they decrease cue ball deflection to a noticeable degree.

People may or may not benefit from that, but they do work at decreasing cue ball deflection and people who claim they don't do not know what they're talking about in my opinion.

All shafts deflect, but by decreasing the amount of deflection then, if the player is off in their compensation by a small percentage, they are going to end up being closer to the correct line and have a better chance of still making the ball with a LD shaft.

A shafts natural pivot point for deflection compensation is an important consideration with regards to a players bridge length if they desire to use back hand english. Having a pivot point matched to the preferred bridge length will yield the best results, this could be a standard or an LD shaft. This also applies when not using side intentionally but by unintentionally putting side (or more/less side then intended) due to stroke inaccuracies.

Regular shafts feel a little (or a lot, just depends) different and some people have a very strong preference for that while not caring much about the deflection difference...that is a good reason to stick with traditional shafts.

If you want to be able to pick a house cue off the wall and play close to your normal speed you'll probably be better off if you're used to a regular shaft...going from LD shaft to a house cue will cause issues for many (not all) LD shaft players if they try to use a lot of side.

If you're a new player, always plan to play your own cue, want to advance as quickly as possible with the best chances then LD is a good place to start...unless you like to use back hand english and have a bridge length that matches up better to a traditional shaft.

In the end, I think everyone needs to try both and see what works best for them. It's no one size fits all. I see the benefits of both and at present am choosing to use a traditional shaft. People who regard all LD shafts as junk that don't work are too caught up with the emotional side of things to accept the truth....it's okay that you don't like them even though they work.

An LD shaft will not immediately make someone a better player, but it can give some players an advantage where they will see an improvement as they get the shaft dialed in and get comfortable with and I think getting to that level can be a bit easier with an LD shaft as the compensation rage required is narrower so the misses are narrower as well.

Patrick Johnson said:

That's not what he meant, but that's even worse nonsense. A bad stroke is just as likely to be closer to center as farther.


I'm not responding to "professional player" CJ (good for him); I'm responding to "doesn't know what he's talking about" CJ - we've seen a lot of him around here.

pj <- and whoever you are, of course
chgo

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Yea. Even worse nonsense that a bad stroke DOESN'T hit off target more than a good stroke does. Lol. Whatever.

Why don't you come to Canton, Ohio at Fiddlesticks and show me. Show me how technically superior you are. Bring a wallet if you are a betting man and please show us what you are made out of. I want to see it. I'll help pay your way. Just PM me and we can set it up or just put it on here publicly. I don't give a damn either way. No worries. Plenty of people to play with various games to play including me. I haven't played more than 5 times in 6 months due to classes and work, but I'll gladly play you to see how amazing your knowledge is.

xXGEARXx said:

Yea. Even worse nonsense that a bad stroke DOESN'T hit off target more than a good stroke does. Lol. Whatever.

Why don't you come to Canton, Ohio at Fiddlesticks and show me. Show me how technically superior you are. Bring a wallet if you are a betting man and please show us what you are made out of. I want to see it. I'll help pay your way. Just PM me and we can set it up or just put it on here publicly. I don't give a damn either way. No worries. Plenty of people to play with various games to play including me. I haven't played more than 5 times in 6 months due to classes and work, but I'll gladly play you to see how amazing your knowledge is.

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Good god man, put that testosterone in check.