why so many kicks/skids?

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As I (and the others I recommended to you) have said over and over, nothing the cue ball does extends its own contact time beyond normal throw - extra friction between the CB and OB exactly at the point of contact (usually a spot of chalk) does that.

No skin off my nose if you don't want to learn about this stuff - but other readers deserve the facts.

pj
chgo

Then please provide facts other then just spouting off with “it is known” bullshit. Dirty balls don’t just skid themselves, or else every freaking shot ever would skid. You're trying to lump a very specific action into a very general sense of things.

First off, I’m not confusing throw and skid. A skid has a visual and audible difference. A ball is leaving the playing surface in the cb->ob collision. Slo-mo has confirmed this many times over. You’ll also never get a skid off of a slight draw shot. Only when using slight stun/follow/roll through. Like I keep saying, an improply stroked cue ball is what leads to skids. Knowing conditions and proper striking of the cue ball will eliminate skids.

Edit: to make sure we are all on the same page. All the balls are to be considered of same size and weight.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Like I keep saying, an improply stroked cue ball is what leads to skids. ...
Skids necessarily are do to excessive friction between the cue ball and object ball. I think there is no way that "improper stroking" can cause that.

I can produce skid by making sure chalk is at the contact point. I can then get a skid with a perfectly fine stroke.

George Onoda's article on skid, available on-line and linked through Dr. Dave's Cling/Skid/Kick page referenced above, is a good start.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
C'mon guys. You want rulers to start measuring here? ;)

He can use his ruler, I’ll go find my yard stick.

Has anyone ever gotten a skid, and still gotten the position they we intending to get? I’ve never seen it happen. I’ve never had it happen. Talk all the ‘at the moment’ it happens all you want. The stroke breaks down, and incorrectly hits the cue ball from where the desired intent was. It’s a stroke/mental flaw that can be overcome.

When was the last time Ronnie O’Sullivan complained about the conditions causing extra skids? He learned it was a breakdown on him, not the conditions.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He can use his ruler, I’ll go find my yard stick.

Has anyone ever gotten a skid, and still gotten the position they we intending to get? I’ve never seen it happen. I’ve never had it happen. Talk all the ‘at the moment’ it happens all you want. The stroke breaks down, and incorrectly hits the cue ball from where the desired intent was. It’s a stroke/mental flaw that can be overcome.

When was the last time Ronnie O’Sullivan complained about the conditions causing extra skids? He learned it was a breakdown on him, not the conditions.

I wonder if what you’re referring to as a skid is different from what others are referring to. Can you describe what happens when there’s a skid?
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Skids necessarily are do to excessive friction between the cue ball and object ball. I think there is no way that "improper stroking" can cause that.

I can produce skid by making sure chalk is at the contact point. I can then get a skid with a perfectly fine stroke.

George Onoda's article on skid, available on-line and linked through Dr. Dave's Cling/Skid/Kick page referenced above, is a good start.


By the application of the chalk at the contact point you have changed what the conditions are for a proper stroke. It’s a test designed to showcase, to the maximum, what a skid is. But the shot can still be stroked in such a manner that it doesn’t skid.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I wonder if what you’re referring to as a skid is different from what others are referring to. Can you describe what happens when there’s a skid?

A skid/kick is when prolonged contact/extra friction causes the cue ball and object ball behaves in a manner that causes one or both balls to possibly bounce, a distinct sound difference. Along with both balls to not follow their respective lines of contact. Differing from throw which has no difference in sound from a normal shot. The sound a skid makes is nearly the same as a ball rolling along a table and hitting a broken seam between the slates.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A skid/kick is when prolonged contact/extra friction causes the cue ball and object ball behaves in a manner that causes one or both balls to possibly bounce, a distinct sound difference. Along with both balls to not follow their respective lines of contact. Differing from throw which has no difference in sound from a normal shot. The sound a skid makes is nearly the same as a ball rolling along a table and hitting a broken seam between the slates.
Are you saying, in your terms, that a skid/kick is ALL stroke related? That dirty balls have no influence? Not tryin to stir a hornet's nest , just trying to see where you're at.
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When was the last time Ronnie O’Sullivan complained about the conditions causing extra skids? He learned it was a breakdown on him, not the conditions.

Some shots are more prone to skid than others and one can reduce (eliminate) the likelihood of a skid by shooting with a particular stroke/ shot speed.

Failure to choose the right stroke a stroke breakdown.

Are you really contending that there is a twitch or something at the end? As in bad contact between cue and cue ball?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Some shots are more prone to skid than others and one can reduce (eliminate) the likelihood of a skid by shooting with a particular stroke/ shot speed.
Sounds to me like you're talking about throw, which can be increased by slower speed, fuller hit, less spin, sliding CB, etc. or reduced/eliminated with things like higher speed, more spin, or "gearing" spin.

I don't know of a stroke technique that can have much, if any effect on skids caused by stuff between the balls.

pj
chgo
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are you saying, in your terms, that a skid/kick is ALL stroke related? That dirty balls have no influence? Not tryin to stir a hornet's nest , just trying to see where you're at.

No. I’m saying that due to the conditions in front of you, if you get a skid, it started with your poor stroke.

Some shots are more prone to skid than others and one can reduce (eliminate) the likelihood of a skid by shooting with a particular stroke/ shot speed.

Failure to choose the right stroke a stroke breakdown.

Are you really contending that there is a twitch or something at the end? As in bad contact between cue and cue ball?

No. Call it a deceleration if you want. A failure of proper stroke contact.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sounds to me like you're talking about throw, which can be increased by slower speed, fuller hit, less spin, sliding CB, etc. or reduced/eliminated with things like higher speed, more spin, or "gearing" spin.

I don't know of a stroke technique that can have much, if any effect on skids caused by stuff between the balls.

pj
chgo
That's what i agree with. Two different occurences and one term to convey them.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sounds to me like you're talking about throw, which can be increased by slower speed, fuller hit, less spin, sliding CB, etc. or reduced/eliminated with things like higher speed, more spin, or "gearing" spin.

I don't know of a stroke technique that can have much, if any effect on skids caused by stuff between the balls.

pj
chgo

It’s nearly impossible to get a kick/skid on a shot over 60*. It is still possible to throw a ball all the way up to 89*. I don’t think B.B. nor me are confused here.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sounds to me like you're talking about throw, which can be increased by slower speed, fuller hit, less spin, sliding CB, etc. or reduced/eliminated with things like higher speed, more spin, or "gearing" spin.

I don't know of a stroke technique that can have much, if any effect on skids caused by stuff between the balls.

pj
chgo

Doesn’t outside English at good speed reduce the effects of chalk-spot throw/kick?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Doesn’t outside English at good speed reduce the effects of chalk-spot throw/kick?
Yep, "gearing" spin negates both normal throw and skids, and it works at any speed - if you hit just the right amount of spin for the cut angle (see pic below).

pj
chgo

This pic shows gearing spin against a rail - the same principle applies for gearing spin against an object ball (picture the CB/OB contact point where the "perpendicular" line exits the CB toward the rail).

2/5 of the distance from CB center to top is also the spot to hit for instant natural roll (vertical "gearing" spin).

gearing2.jpg
 
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BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep, "gearing" spin negates both normal throw and skids, and it works at any speed - if you hit just the right amount of spin for the cut angle (see pic below).

pj
chgo

This pic shows gearing spin against a rail - the same principle applies for gearing spin against an object ball (picture the CB/OB contact point where the "perpendicular" line exits the CB toward the rail).

2/5 of the distance from CB center to top is also the spot to hit for instant natural roll (vertical "gearing" spin).

View attachment 528085

Then that would be an example of how the stroke could affect skid.
 
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