taper and size

jackpot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It is well known that making the tip end of the shaft lighter is the main thing that
causes lower deflection. How much does the size and taper really effect the deflection.
The smaller tip and conical taper seems to be all the rage now, but it feels terrible
to me. The longer pro taper has fallen out of favor in the last few years for some
reason.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My own opinion on all of these equipment debates- do you think that if Mosconi, at his very best, showed up at a 14.1 tournament today with his cue from 1950s, that he would not win? Jack Nicklaus in his prime showing up at the Masters with his favorite set of clubs from way back when-? probably place in the top 5.
These games, once you learn the basics of stroke, swing, aiming, strategy; become all about how you Think as you approach each shot, and how you focus and execute at the point of release. My own experience and opinion is that 99.9% of those looking to improve at pool or golf should worry way more about how to relax, think, focus and execute - IN THAT ORDER- instead of worrying about equipment. Let's not forget that the development of good rhythm expedites the flow of those four ingredients to success in the most repeatable fashion. Equipment is a matter of personal choice for comfort- people looking for a magic bullet in their equipment are doomed to mediocrity in almost all sports; except maybe race cars and the like.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My own opinion on all of these equipment debates- do you think that if Mosconi, at his very best, showed up at a 14.1 tournament today with his cue from 1950s, that he would not win? Jack Nicklaus in his prime showing up at the Masters with his favorite set of clubs from way back when-? probably place in the top 5.
These games, once you learn the basics of stroke, swing, aiming, strategy; become all about how you Think as you approach each shot, and how you focus and execute at the point of release. My own experience and opinion is that 99.9% of those looking to improve at pool or golf should worry way more about how to relax, think, focus and execute - IN THAT ORDER- instead of worrying about equipment. Let's not forget that the development of good rhythm expedites the flow of those four ingredients to success in the most repeatable fashion. Equipment is a matter of personal choice for comfort- people looking for a magic bullet in their equipment are doomed to mediocrity in almost all sports; except maybe race cars and the like.
Pool probably but not golf. The difference in modern equipment over stuff from when Jack ruled is VAST. He'd get outdriven by 40yds(even more if he used old ball) and there's NO way to overcome that. There's not that much difference in how cues play. The makers of LD stuff will tell you that the difference is huge but i've used both and its not that big a deal.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Vast difference

Well, I will have to say that the best low deflection cue compared to a plain jane 13mm maple cue plays vastly differently. My first experience with low deflection was in the eighties, a twelve ounce sixty inch snooker cue. I forget the size of the tip, I think 11mm or smaller, but I am here to say from end to end of a seven foot bar table it made over two inches difference in deflection sometimes! That puppy was a rare pain to learn to play with especially since I was only using it in one bar. However, when I got the way that stick played down I could make the old heavy bar ball do everything but sit up on it's hind legs and beg.

The huge difference, more important than deflection in my opinion, was total cue weight. I had speed control to a degree never experienced before. Deflection was certainly easier to get right, since it was maybe 1/4 the deflection of a standard bar cue off the wall.

An old master with his shaft he has used for years is rarely going to get deflection wrong. However, regardless of who you are, your errors are smaller when you are judging an inch of deflection instead of four.

The easiest way to get lower deflection is to take mass off of the outside of the shaft. That also makes it harder to play with so a combination of mass off of the outside and mass removed from the inside is often used. Got to pay the piper somewhere so the lowest deflection shafts have to get thicker faster for strength. Players have to compromise somewhere, either more deflection or faster taper. That in a nutshell is the answer to your question about taper Jack. People still like a pro taper best, but having to choose between lower deflection faster taper, and more deflection pro taper, most will eventually vote lower deflection.

Somehow, there is more to the equation than is usually laid on the table. The theory is the mass of the first part of the shaft, five inches or less I believe, is all that matters. However, I would bet the low deflection qualities of that plain wood twelve ounce cue against any cue shaft on the market today.

The low deflection shafts are easier to play with. For the vast majority of players who only play a few times a week that means they will play better with them. Even the pro's will eventually give up their wood. Carbon fiber is different and the first impulse is to not fight learning something they don't need. However, as more and more players switch to CF, more players will be beaten by CF. The changeover is coming. Hi-tech has been proven better for pretty much all other sports equipment, it is better for pool too. The only reason baseball bats are still wood in the pro's is that hi-tech would obsolete the baseball fields themselves.

I like wood, wood is good. CF is better.

Hu
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool probably but not golf. The difference in modern equipment over stuff from when Jack ruled is VAST. He'd get outdriven by 40yds(even more if he used old ball) and there's NO way to overcome that. There's not that much difference in how cues play. The makers of LD stuff will tell you that the difference is huge but i've used both and its not that big a deal.

I agree, but with one caveat. The LD shafts absolutely help a less skilled player get more action from the cue ball with much less of a stroke/skillset. I actually don't think this is a good thing - but can see where this "quick fix" would be enticing to a newer player. The 'oh wow, I'm drawing the ball a foot' feeling would be exciting. Put a 13 mm shaft in their hands and they can't draw it three inches. Why, because they don't really understand the grip, the feel, or the stroke required to do so.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, I will have to say that the best low deflection cue compared to a plain jane 13mm maple cue plays vastly differently. My first experience with low deflection was in the eighties, a twelve ounce sixty inch snooker cue. I forget the size of the tip, I think 11mm or smaller, but I am here to say from end to end of a seven foot bar table it made over two inches difference in deflection sometimes! That puppy was a rare pain to learn to play with especially since I was only using it in one bar. However, when I got the way that stick played down I could make the old heavy bar ball do everything but sit up on it's hind legs and beg.

The huge difference, more important than deflection in my opinion, was total cue weight. I had speed control to a degree never experienced before. Deflection was certainly easier to get right, since it was maybe 1/4 the deflection of a standard bar cue off the wall.

An old master with his shaft he has used for years is rarely going to get deflection wrong. However, regardless of who you are, your errors are smaller when you are judging an inch of deflection instead of four.

The easiest way to get lower deflection is to take mass off of the outside of the shaft. That also makes it harder to play with so a combination of mass off of the outside and mass removed from the inside is often used. Got to pay the piper somewhere so the lowest deflection shafts have to get thicker faster for strength. Players have to compromise somewhere, either more deflection or faster taper. That in a nutshell is the answer to your question about taper Jack. People still like a pro taper best, but having to choose between lower deflection faster taper, and more deflection pro taper, most will eventually vote lower deflection.

Somehow, there is more to the equation than is usually laid on the table. The theory is the mass of the first part of the shaft, five inches or less I believe, is all that matters. However, I would bet the low deflection qualities of that plain wood twelve ounce cue against any cue shaft on the market today.

The low deflection shafts are easier to play with. For the vast majority of players who only play a few times a week that means they will play better with them. Even the pro's will eventually give up their wood. Carbon fiber is different and the first impulse is to not fight learning something they don't need. However, as more and more players switch to CF, more players will be beaten by CF. The changeover is coming. Hi-tech has been proven better for pretty much all other sports equipment, it is better for pool too. The only reason baseball bats are still wood in the pro's is that hi-tech would obsolete the baseball fields themselves.

I like wood, wood is good. CF is better.

Hu

I agree. CF will "eventually" be in every pros hands. Not just because they are being sponsored either. Because CF is better.

Like you said, "wood is good...but...CF is better"...

Jeff
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
tried a REVO

I agree. CF will "eventually" be in every pros hands. Not just because they are being sponsored either. Because CF is better.

Like you said, "wood is good...but...CF is better"...

Jeff


I tried a friend's REVO, fully expecting to dislike it. First surprise, his 11.8 shaft felt real similar to my thicker wood shaft in terms of feedback. The second surprise was that I shot well with it. If I still gambled regularly or still played tournaments there is no question, I would shell out the bucks. Hard to admit because I am a traditionalist. However, nothing I hate worse than being beaten by equipment rather than a person. That is what will happen to the people that don't go with the best. Like it or not, that means CF at the moment.

Hu
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree, but with one caveat. The LD shafts absolutely help a less skilled player get more action from the cue ball with much less of a stroke/skillset. I actually don't think this is a good thing - but can see where this "quick fix" would be enticing to a newer player. The 'oh wow, I'm drawing the ball a foot' feeling would be exciting. Put a 13 mm shaft in their hands and they can't draw it three inches. Why, because they don't really understand the grip, the feel, or the stroke required to do so.
There is some evidence that LD equates to more spin but its VERY slight. I've never noticed any extra spin. Accuracy while using spin is better but even that is not huge difference. As for drawing a ball i never had any problem drawing the length of the table with a full 13mm shaft on my Richard Black or any 13mm cue. If a person can't back it up with a 13 they have no stroke.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The LD shafts absolutely help a less skilled player get more action from the cue ball with much less of a stroke/skillset.

There is some evidence that LD equates to more spin but its VERY slight. I've never noticed any extra spin.
I don't believe any shaft produces more or less spin than any other - I've tested many low- and high-deflection shafts and never found a difference.

pj
chgo
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't believe any shaft produces more or less spin than any other - I've tested many low- and high-deflection shafts and never found a difference.

pj
chgo

We will have to agree to disagree. From my experience it's absolutely easier to get more spin with, at least, a 314-3 shaft using the same cue ball and stroke.
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is some evidence that LD equates to more spin but its VERY slight. I've never noticed any extra spin. Accuracy while using spin is better but even that is not huge difference. As for drawing a ball i never had any problem drawing the length of the table with a full 13mm shaft on my Richard Black or any 13mm cue. If a person can't back it up with a 13 they have no stroke.

Yes, as I said - the LD shaft (at least, speaking in regard to a 314-3) produces more spin with a much weaker stroke.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, as I said - the LD shaft (at least, speaking in regard to a 314-3) produces more spin with a much weaker stroke.
Any extra spin is tiny. Its not going to make bad stroke start drawing their ball. I've owned about five different LD shafts and all i noticed it was slightly easier to use inside. I've never had a problem drawing the ball and i didn't notice any extra when using LD shaft. If you have a mediocre/weak stroke LD is not going help much at all.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I tried a friend's REVO, fully expecting to dislike it. First surprise, his 11.8 shaft felt real similar to my thicker wood shaft in terms of feedback. The second surprise was that I shot well with it. If I still gambled regularly or still played tournaments there is no question, I would shell out the bucks. Hard to admit because I am a traditionalist. However, nothing I hate worse than being beaten by equipment rather than a person. That is what will happen to the people that don't go with the best. Like it or not, that means CF at the moment.

Hu

Yep. Two players of equal skill are only separated by their equipment.

No different than anything else....engineers, doctors and all other trades. Any two tradesman that are of equal skill are separated only by their equipment.

Jeff
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
We will have to agree to disagree. From my experience it's absolutely easier to get more spin with, at least, a 314-3 shaft using the same cue ball and stroke.
Have you tried testing it to see if it's real or your impression? It's simple to do, if you're interested.

pj
chgo
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool probably but not golf. The difference in modern equipment over stuff from when Jack ruled is VAST. He'd get outdriven by 40yds(even more if he used old ball) and there's NO way to overcome that. There's not that much difference in how cues play. The makers of LD stuff will tell you that the difference is huge but i've used both and its not that big a deal.

Yes, I would agree- sort of like hitting a baseball with a wood bat compared to a hi tech metal alloy bat that springs the ball forward. Although; the short game in golf is where the strokes are made or lost, from what i know about golf.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yep. Two players of equal skill are only separated by their equipment.

No different than anything else....engineers, doctors and all other trades. Any two tradesman that are of equal skill are separated only by their equipment.

Jeff

I agree with this to a great extent; but my issue has always been that I have seen so many pool players and golfers alike; who are not as good as they THINK they should be; start messing with equipment and looking for the answer to their lack of success in the wrong place. From what I am hearing most very experienced players say- it makes the most sense to first try to develop successful mechanics and a successful mind set for a game; THEN perhaps, fine tune that great stroke and great aim with top of the line equipment ; if you find that the equipment makes a difference.
Personally, now that I am retired and have more time to devote to REALLY looking at my game honestly and objectively; I see certain flaws that need to be corrected to get me to my desired level, which is fairly high- just small changes in thought and stroke. I am glad that I never veered from traditional pool cues, except for a brief trial with a predator cue,especially now, it would mess me up way too much at this point. There is just something about playing with a really great traditionally made custom cue that helps me to love playing the game; I don't knock the new stuff- it is just not for me.
 
Last edited:

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with this to a great extent; but my issue has always been that I have seen so many pool players and golfers alike; who are not as good as they THINK they should be; start messing with equipment and looking for the answer to their lack of success in the wrong place. From what I am hearing most very experienced players say- it makes the most sense to first try to develop successful mechanics and a successful mind set for a game; THEN perhaps, fine tune that great stroke and great aim with top of the line equipment ; if you find that the equipment makes a difference.
Personally, now that I am retired and have more time to devote to REALLY looking at my game honestly and objectively; I see certain flaws that need to be corrected to get me to my desired level, which is fairly high- just small changes in thought and stroke. I am glad that I never veered from traditional pool cues, except for a brief trial with a predator cue,especially now, it would mess me up way too much at this point.

Yes. IMO, all of a person's focus should be on fundamentals and not equipment UNTIL....

The until is where the problem is found. As you pointed out, most think they are above their true skill levels and that false sense of skill leads them to believe they are faced with fact that they will have to look to equipment changes to further improve or even reach their full potential.

As you know, reaching ones full potential has nothing to do with equipment. IMO, only after one reaches a higher level of skill, can they actually take advantage of the "extremely" small differences between traditional and modern equipment.

I know most say to start with modern equipment but, IMO...all of the newbies would be better served to start out with plain maple shafts that are dense.

Yep, build your fundamentals with traditional cues in a traditional way. IMO...only after that should anyone make the transition to "equipment difference".

Jeff
 
Last edited:

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with this to a great extent; but my issue has always been that I have seen so many pool players and golfers alike; who are not as good as they THINK they should be; start messing with equipment and looking for the answer to their lack of success in the wrong place. From what I am hearing most very experienced players say- it makes the most sense to first try to develop successful mechanics and a successful mind set for a game; THEN perhaps, fine tune that great stroke and great aim with top of the line equipment ; if you find that the equipment makes a difference.
Personally, now that I am retired and have more time to devote to REALLY looking at my game honestly and objectively; I see certain flaws that need to be corrected to get me to my desired level, which is fairly high- just small changes in thought and stroke. I am glad that I never veered from traditional pool cues, except for a brief trial with a predator cue,especially now, it would mess me up way too much at this point. There is just something about playing with a really great traditionally made custom cue that helps me to love playing the game; I don't knock the new stuff- it is just not for me.

And yes, in the end, some don't think it's worth it to make the transition.

It was hard for me. It took me months to actually adjust to CF (LD) shafts.

I was use to a very dense 29" wooden shaft that weighed 4.8 ounces and had a 1" ivory ferrule that was 13.25 mm.

That shaft would deflect the cb ~8" from head spot to foot rail... My current shaft deflects less than 1" (~.5") from same shot at similar speed/stroke.

So, I can understand why a person wouldn't want to change. It was a nightmare adjusting for spin not to mention, the feel/sounds that I had to give up.

Having said that, did the change make me a better player? No, it did not. What it did do was allow me to be able to have multiple shafts that play "identical" from one to another.

If I could get that from a maple shaft, I would sell all of CF equipment today.
 

grindz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I tried a friend's REVO, fully expecting to dislike it. First surprise, his 11.8 shaft felt real similar to my thicker wood shaft in terms of feedback. The second surprise was that I shot well with it. If I still gambled regularly or still played tournaments there is no question, I would shell out the bucks. Hard to admit because I am a traditionalist. However, nothing I hate worse than being beaten by equipment rather than a person. That is what will happen to the people that don't go with the best. Like it or not, that means CF at the moment.

Hu

When I was competing, I didn't like to get beat period! :wink: But.... I always enjoyed winning with the worst equipment, not that it was bad equipment. I held on to playing with my wood tennis racquets looong after they went out of favor, and enjoyed winning against man made composites..... until I couldn't (just like you stated). Too old and uncompetitive to switch from my wood shafts now.

Funny thing, when I first got my JW cue (3rd hand), I bought a couple of extra shafts also 3rd hand (from pro, to local pro who liked sandpaper, to me). So my main playing shafts were great for the snooker I played, but probably not best suited for regular pool (I don't know the mm, but super thin). I didn't know the difference, other than I liked them better than the original fat and shorter shaft. I didn't even know what "deflection" or "squirt" were until I came to AZB! :yikes: I knew what 'throw' was, but just played to the picture in my mind, not any calculation. Playing with those shafts was when I was at my best.... oh to be young again.:wink:

td
 
Top