Illegal push shot or not.

PoolBoy1 · Feb 4, 2015

I believe push shots are illegal. If I throw a ball frozen to cue ball with a quick snap of the cue is that illegal? I actually stroke the ball but not follow through this type of shot. The cue ball will not follow the OB far with this shot.

Or is it more legal to strike the cue ball like a jump shot from above and masse it.

TheNewSharkster · Feb 4, 2015

PoolBoy1 said:
I believe push shots are illegal. If I throw a ball frozen to cue ball with a quick snap of the cue is that illegal? I actually stroke the ball but not follow through this type of shot. The cue ball will not follow the OB far with this shot.

Or is it more legal to strike the cue ball like a jump shot from above and masse it.

In most rules as long as the balls are touching you can push.

Blue Hog ridr · Feb 4, 2015

What Shark said, except in true definition, you can't do a push shot.

But I know what he meant.

Sometimes, people have a different view of what constitutes a Push Shot and a Double hit.

I have heard players mix up the 2 definitions.

2 Frozen Balls. Yes, you can push thru it, but still have to do it proper, in order not to perform a true Push Shot and Foul.

If you can find it. Referee Quiz on Dr. Dave's site. Bob Jewett takes you thru a ton of different shots.

The Frozen Ball shot and how to do it proper is shown several different times.

The Not So Frozen Ball shots, Tangent Lines etc, are also shown, how to do them and avoid Fouls.

Even if you are not a Ref, I highly recommend watching the videos. You will know what is legal and what is not. The most important part, how to do it yourself and also recognize another player Fouling those shots.

Neil · Feb 4, 2015

A push shot is placing your tip against the cb and pushing through. Push shots are illegal. To shoot a cb frozen to an ob, you must use a normal stroke. Now, this is for regular rules. Some leagues don't allow you to shoot through a frozen cb/ob, and some say there are no double hits so you can do whatever you want to.

Here's the link to the test BlueHogRidr was talking about-
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm

and the answers- http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/referee_quiz_answer_sheet.pdf

Bob Jewett · Feb 5, 2015

Neil said:
A push shot is placing your tip against the cb and pushing through. Push shots are illegal. ...

I think that very few players know how to do a push shot as described above (which follows the official definition). To use the shot effectively you need to practice it and there are usually other legal ways to do the same thing. Here is a trick shot that is a true push:

| <-- rail
|
|
|8Q ----------- stick
/
pocket-------------rail

The 8 ball is frozen to the cushion. The Q ball is frozen to the 8. Bring the cue stick up very slowly to barely touch the Q ball slightly on the right side of the ball, then press (not stroke) firmly. The 8 ball is geared into the corner pocket.

PoolBoy1 · Feb 5, 2015

Blue Hog ridr said:
What Shark said, except in true definition, you can't do a push shot.

But I know what he meant.

Sometimes, people have a different view of what constitutes a Push Shot and a Double hit.

I have heard players mix up the 2 definitions.

2 Frozen Balls. Yes, you can push thru it, but still have to do it proper, in order not to perform a true Push Shot and Foul.

If you can find it. Referee Quiz on Dr. Dave's site. Bob Jewett takes you thru a ton of different shots.

The Frozen Ball shot and how to do it proper is shown several different times.

The Not So Frozen Ball shots, Tangent Lines etc, are also shown, how to do them and avoid Fouls.

Even if you are not a Ref, I highly recommend watching the videos. You will know what is legal and what is not. The most important part, how to do it yourself and also recognize another player Fouling those shots.

So I'll take it as a legal shot as long as no double hit occurs. I havent' had a double hit in 58 years playing. This type of push shot can be spun further off line with english applied.

dr_dave · Feb 5, 2015

Neil said:
A push shot is placing your tip against the cb and pushing through. Push shots are illegal. To shoot a cb frozen to an ob, you must use a normal stroke. Now, this is for regular rules. Some leagues don't allow you to shoot through a frozen cb/ob, and some say there are no double hits so you can do whatever you want to.

Here's the link to the test BlueHogRidr was talking about-
http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-61.htm

and the answers- http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/referee_quiz_answer_sheet.pdf

For those interested, the full set of pool rules quiz videos (both the questions, answers, and associated instruction) can be found at the bottom of the page here:

pool rules resource page

And more info, videos and articles dealing with double hits and push shots can be found here:

fouls resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

Cornerman · Feb 5, 2015

PoolBoy1 said:
So I'll take it as a legal shot as long as no double hit occurs. I havent' had a double hit in 58 years playing. This type of push shot can be spun further off line with english applied.

A push shot as the others have pointed out is something else. What you're describing is a shot where the cueball is frozen to the cueball.

Historically, the confusion comes in from the fact that if you physically push (an illegal stroke where you literally push the cueball like a push broom) the cueball, you can throw the object ball very easily. So, players and readers have erroneously equated the push with the frozen balls. They aren't synonynmous. I think Bob Byrne could have been more clear, but the majority of player who read about pool read it from him... and confused the terms.

You can shoot with a regular non-push stroke at a cueball frozen to an object ball.

An illegal push shot can occur when the cueball is NOT frozen to any ball.

Freddie <~~~ I know, it's confusing

dr_dave · Feb 5, 2015

Cornerman said:
A push shot as the others have pointed out is something else. What you're describing is a shot where the cueball is frozen to the cueball.
...
You can shoot with a regular non-push stroke at a cueball frozen to an object ball.

An illegal push shot can occur when the cueball is NOT frozen to any ball.

Well stated. If people want video proof and more info on this topic, it can be found here:

frozen-ball shot resource page

and

push shot resource page

Enjoy,
Dave

hang-the-9 · Feb 5, 2015

PoolBoy1 said:
I believe push shots are illegal. If I throw a ball frozen to cue ball with a quick snap of the cue is that illegal? I actually stroke the ball but not follow through this type of shot. The cue ball will not follow the OB far with this shot.

Or is it more legal to strike the cue ball like a jump shot from above and masse it.

The way you make it sound, that shot is illegal (cue balls follows the line of the shot a little). If you do a proper stroke through the ball then it should be fine. It's very hard to avoid a foul when you shoot straight at the balls that are close together or are touching without shooting away from them at about a 45% angle. You can get a double hit on the tip or end up with a push shot.

The Renfro · Feb 5, 2015

hang-the-9 said:
The way you make it sound, that shot is illegal (cue balls follows the line of the shot a little). If you do a proper stroke through the ball then it should be fine. It's very hard to avoid a foul when you shoot straight at the balls that are close together or are touching without shooting away from them at about a 45% angle. You can get a double hit on the tip or end up with a push shot.

Watch the videos... if the balls are frozen using a normal stroke there is no foul even shooting directly at the ball... Normal stroke is key here... the cueball to object ball contact is about 1/2 a millisecond and the object ball is gone.. The tip stays in contact the cueball for a minimum of another half millisecond so there will be no double hit...

hang-the-9 · Feb 5, 2015

The Renfro said:
Watch the videos... if the balls are frozen using a normal stroke there is no foul even shooting directly at the ball... Normal stroke is key here... the cueball to object ball contact is about 1/2 a millisecond and the object ball is gone.. The tip stays in contact the cueball for a minimum of another half millisecond so there will be no double hit...

Yes normal storke is fine but he described "If I throw a ball frozen to cue ball with a quick snap of the cue ".

We'll need a video.

DogsPlayingPool · Feb 5, 2015

I think Freddie and Dave covered it. The issue is the double hit foul. When the balls are very close together a normal stroke will usually result in a double hit. When they are frozen a normal stroke does not usually result in a double hit and that's why it is legal to use a normal stroke when the balls are frozen.

dr_dave · Feb 5, 2015

DogsPlayingPool said:
I think Freddie and Dave covered it. The issue is the double hit foul. When the balls are very close together a normal stroke will usually result in a double hit. When they are frozen a normal stroke does not usually result in a double hit and that's why it is legal to use a normal stroke when the balls are frozen.

A stroke into a frozen CB-OB (at any angle) never results in a double hit unless the tip starts on the CB to begin with or if an extremely awkward "pushing" stroke is used (which isn't easy). Again video proof, along with numerous examples, can be found here:

frozen-ball shot resource page
and
push shot resource page

If those videos don't convince the doubters, then nothing will.

Regards,
Dave

PoolBoy1 · Feb 5, 2015

So I am satisfied with normally stroking and throwing the frozen balls unless in an event that says otherwise. With rules not allowed to hit (push) frozen balls (double hit) one would have to play away from the ball and not move it?

Bob Jewett · Feb 5, 2015

PoolBoy1 said:
So I am satisfied with normally stroking and throwing the frozen balls unless in an event that says otherwise. With rules not allowed to hit (push) frozen balls (double hit) one would have to play away from the ball and not move it?

Well, under some rules that don't allow you to shoot into a frozen ball, you can choose to have the balls spotted. In other games, you are required to have the balls spotted. It's always good to know the rules you are playing by. It is sometimes permitted to read them.

KMRUNOUT · Feb 5, 2015

PoolBoy1 said:
I believe push shots are illegal. If I throw a ball frozen to cue ball with a quick snap of the cue is that illegal? I actually stroke the ball but not follow through this type of shot. The cue ball will not follow the OB far with this shot.

Or is it more legal to strike the cue ball like a jump shot from above and masse it.

In most rules if the object ball and cue ball are frozen, you can stroke straight thru. If there are no other interfering balls or rails, it shouldn't be a foul.

KMRUNOUT

Cornerman · Feb 5, 2015

And then here are the tournaments with professional players and longtime tournament refs and directors who tell the players that if the balls are frozen, just elevate 45 degrees or more and you'll be fine. It happens.

Blue Hog ridr · Feb 5, 2015

Freddy, with the few tournies that I have reffed, I would say that I have seen a large number of players get out their J/B or Jump cues and do exactly that.

Maybe it is just their preference and also, they just don't know.

I have often thought of an explanation, (after their shot of course), but when they are into their game and probably not interested, and I don't want to interrupt their train of thought anyway.

Would be nice to be able to let a few more into it tho.

GideonF · Feb 5, 2015

Cornerman said:
And then here are the tournaments with professional players and longtime tournament refs and directors who tell the players that if the balls are frozen, just elevate 45 degrees or more and you'll be fine. It happens.

I think this is a bastardization of the equally bizarre rule that if the balls are close together but not frozen (sometimes said as "less than a chalk width"), it will not be a double hit if you elevate 45 degrees or more. This of course makes a number of double hits legal, but perhaps it is just easier than training referees and players on what is a double hit.

Gideon<----Needs to watch Dr. Dave's videos again

Illegal push shot or not.

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