Pocket Facing Thickness Question

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ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Will changing from 1/4" Neoprene pocket facings to 1/8" Neoprene pocket facings, result in the pockets playing differently - tighter to be specific? The subrails were extended and cushion rubbers replaced, so that the pocket specs were completely unchanged. Balls seem to rattle in the pockets more, I'm speculating due to the thinner pocket facings now being livelier and bouncier than the thicker pocket facings. Does this make sense?

If that indeed is true, then can I assume a Diamond table from the factory with 3/16" pocket facings will have pockets that play slightly more forgiving than another table with identical pocket specs that has 1/8" pocket facings? If so, I can only assume the only reason Diamond uses 3/16" facings on all their tables is because they've determined the 1/8" facings result in facings that become too bouncy which result in the pockets playing too tight? Thanks!
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
Concerning the 1/8" pocket facings, I have been told by 2 of the best in the business that 3/16" is the smallest to use. As you mentioned, Diamond uses 3/16" as well.

In my opinion they would play less bouncey, less 60 durometer neoprene means more solid wood inside the jaws of the pocket. Less neoprene material = less bounce.

Did you see that youtube video the guy posted the other day on here? Same durometer neoprene, but one had the nylon in it and bounced less. But, even in his testing, not sure how the hardness could be the same with the nylon infused in there. I am not a scientist of course.

Anyways, you could set up your own test like he did and see which ball bounced higher and that would give you some data to make a better decision on.

Unless you are a Pro or trying to be, I see no reason for a table to play this tough. I get it, some people think it will make you a stronger player because you must hit center pocket far more and that may be true, but, most tournaments are not using that small of a pocket. I think Diamonds Pro cut pocket is tough enough. Maybe someone who knows some Pro's that prefer the smaller pockets will chime in with some info.

Just my opinions on the matter, maybe someone like RKC will drop some knowledge on the topic.

Trent from Toledo

p.s. the use of Artemis: they are very lively cushions, but, the ball only makes contact on the end(inside the jaws, not on the nose at the end of the cushion) of the cushion in such a small space, I guess when you hit that spot maybe a 3/16" facing would make it bounce more? Getting into rocket science here! :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
C

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
Concerning the 1/8" pocket facings, I have been told by 2 of the best in the business that 3/16" is the smallest to use. As you mentioned, Diamond uses 3/16" as well.

In my opinion they would play less bouncey, less 60 durometer neoprene means more solid wood inside the jaws of the pocket. Less neoprene material = less bounce.

Did you see that youtube video the guy posted the other day on here? Same durometer neoprene, but one had the nylon in it and bounced less. But, even in his testing, not sure how the hardness could be the same with the nylon infused in there. I am not a scientist of course.

Anyways, you could set up your own test like he did and see which ball bounced higher and that would give you some data to make a better decision on.

Unless you are a Pro or trying to be, I see no reason for a table to play this tough. I get it, some people think it will make you a stronger player because you must hit center pocket far more and that may be true, but, most tournaments are not using that small of a pocket. I think Diamonds Pro cut pocket is tough enough. Maybe someone who knows some Pro's that prefer the smaller pockets will chime in with some info.

Just my opinions on the matter, maybe someone like RKC will drop some knowledge on the topic.

Trent from Toledo

p.s. the use of Artemis: they are very lively cushions, but, the ball only makes contact on the end(inside the jaws, not on the nose at the end of the cushion) of the cushion in such a small space, I guess when you hit that spot maybe a 3/16" facing would make it bounce more? Getting into rocket science here! :thumbup:
Click to expand...
I really appreciate your insight - thanks!
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
Thicker facings are better for preserving the wood behind them.

How many old Gold Crowns have you seen with cupped pocket openings? You peel the 1/8" facings off, only to realize that the wood behind them is destroyed.
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
Thicker facings are better for preserving the wood behind them.

How many old Gold Crowns have you seen with cupped pocket openings? You peel the 1/8" facings off, only to realize that the wood behind them is destroyed.
Click to expand...

I agree totally. I also think the material of the old GC pocket facings also contributes to the damage to the wood inside the jaws of the pockets. I usually see canvass impregnated rubber that is hard as a rock.

I usually use the 3/16" 60D rubber and the 1/4" 60D for people who want the pockets a lil tighter with out the sub rail extension. What do you use/ prefer. I have seen you on here and you always have good info!

Trent from Toledo
 
bradsh98

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
I agree totally. I also think the material of the old GC pocket facings also contributes to the damage to the wood inside the jaws of the pockets. I usually see canvass impregnated rubber that is hard as a rock.

I usually use the 3/16" 60D rubber and the 1/4" 60D for people who want the pockets a lil tighter with out the sub rail extension. What do you use/ prefer. I have seen you on here and you always have good info!

Trent from Toledo
Click to expand...

Thank you.

I also use 60D 3/16" and 1/4" neoprene facings. You can buy rolls of it, and cut it to size. It's a little cheaper than buying from billiard suppliers, but it sometimes requires a little more work.
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
bradsh98 said:
Thank you.

I also use 60D 3/16" and 1/4" neoprene facings. You can buy rolls of it, and cut it to size. It's a little cheaper than buying from billiard suppliers, but it sometimes requires a little more work.
Click to expand...

I buy it in 12" x 12" sheets (from ZORO online) because it is FLAT, the rolls are a bit of a pain. I know the sheets cost a lil more than the rolls, but, I have a template/ can cut a set of facings in 5 minutes and use them right away!

Trent from Toledo
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
trentfromtoledo said:
I usually use the 3/16" 60D rubber.....
Click to expand...
trentfromtoledo said:
I buy it in 12" x 12" sheets (from ZORO online) because it is FLAT, the rolls are a bit of a pain.
Click to expand...
Bumping an oldie, but it's still probably better than repeating...

I'm hunting for a source of this 3/16" 60D. I looked around the ZORO.com website and couldn't find anything other than material listed as 60A.
zoro.png

A search on McMaster.com also reveals no 60D material.

The only hits I did managed to stumble across in the 60D catagory were for massive rolls in 1/8" thickness.

Is this something that may have changed since 2018, or am I in search of a red herring...?
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
The_JV said:
Is this something that may have changed since 2018, or am I in search of a red herring...?
Click to expand...
So I've been excerising my GoogleFu and found this chart that lists this elusive 60D material..:
kmkmkmkmj.png

So according to the above. '60D' falls somewhere between the hardness of a shopping cart caster and a hard hat. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that's probably a tad harder than what we would be looking for....lol.

60A on the other hand is just encroaching on the 'Med/Hard' range of rubber. Nearly 10 points softer than a car tire. I'm thinking this is what I'm looking for.

So now the question remaining is whether a reinforced 60A material is desired over a non-reforced product...?
 
T

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
trentfromtoledo said:
SORRY!!! it is 60a!! I was using the "D" as short for durometer!
Click to expand...
trentfromtoledo said:
Hope this helps, 60a from ZORO is it! :)

TFT
Click to expand...
lol... no problem.

McMaster will actually be an easier vendor for me to deal with, so unless there's a reason to I'll most likely go that route.

On that note. There's two options.
  1. Multipurpose Neoprene
  2. 'High-Strength' Multipurpose Neoprene
Both have a rating of 60A, but apparently the high strength stuff has better shock absorbing properties and durability. Find it odd that it has the same durometer rating as the other stuff.

Oh well, guess it only makes sense to buy the high strength option.
 
trentfromtoledo

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
The_JV said:
lol... no problem.

McMaster will actually be an easier vendor for me to deal with, so unless there's a reason to I'll most likely go that route.

On that note. There's two options.
  1. Multipurpose Neoprene
  2. 'High-Strength' Multipurpose Neoprene
Both have a rating of 60A, but apparently the high strength stuff has better shock absorbing properties and durability. Find it odd that it has the same durometer rating as the other stuff.

Oh well, guess it only makes sense to buy the high strength option.
Click to expand...
that all sounds like one to many choices!! lol, i am sure either will be good!

TFT
 
T

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
trentfromtoledo said:
SORRY!!! it is 60a!! I was using the "D" as short for durometer!
Hope this helps, 60a from ZORO is it! :)

TFT
Click to expand...
So the pocket facings are softer than a car tire? Maybe it's hard to tell when it's on a pool table, but the facings on my table feel like they could be cut out of a credit card. I bought the table used but was told the cloth was original so I assume the cushions and facings would be original, too. The pockets have no problem spitting out balls, that's for sure. (Olhausen)
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
ChrisinNC said:
Will changing from 1/4" Neoprene pocket facings to 1/8" Neoprene pocket facings, result in the pockets playing differently - tighter to be specific? The subrails were extended and cushion rubbers replaced, so that the pocket specs were completely unchanged. Balls seem to rattle in the pockets more, I'm speculating due to the thinner pocket facings now being livelier and bouncier than the thicker pocket facings. Does this make sense?

If that indeed is true, then can I assume a Diamond table from the factory with 3/16" pocket facings will have pockets that play slightly more forgiving than another table with identical pocket specs that has 1/8" pocket facings? If so, I can only assume the only reason Diamond uses 3/16" facings on all their tables is because they've determined the 1/8" facings result in facings that become too bouncy which result in the pockets playing too tight? Thanks!
Click to expand...
We changed to 3/16" facings for a couple of reasons, but more importantly because the thickness eliminated the cloth cutting through from all the balls beating on the 1/8" facings resulting in the stencil cutting through the cloth matching the Sumrall bevel. Softer facings provide more rattle in the pockets as a consequence of using them.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
Concerning the 1/8" pocket facings, I have been told by 2 of the best in the business that 3/16" is the smallest to use. As you mentioned, Diamond uses 3/16" as well.

In my opinion they would play less bouncey, less 60 durometer neoprene means more solid wood inside the jaws of the pocket. Less neoprene material = less bounce.

Did you see that youtube video the guy posted the other day on here? Same durometer neoprene, but one had the nylon in it and bounced less. But, even in his testing, not sure how the hardness could be the same with the nylon infused in there. I am not a scientist of course.

Anyways, you could set up your own test like he did and see which ball bounced higher and that would give you some data to make a better decision on.

Unless you are a Pro or trying to be, I see no reason for a table to play this tough. I get it, some people think it will make you a stronger player because you must hit center pocket far more and that may be true, but, most tournaments are not using that small of a pocket. I think Diamonds Pro cut pocket is tough enough. Maybe someone who knows some Pro's that prefer the smaller pockets will chime in with some info.

Just my opinions on the matter, maybe someone like RKC will drop some knowledge on the topic.

Trent from Toledo

p.s. the use of Artemis: they are very lively cushions, but, the ball only makes contact on the end(inside the jaws, not on the nose at the end of the cushion) of the cushion in such a small space, I guess when you hit that spot maybe a 3/16" facing would make it bounce more? Getting into rocket science here! 👍
Click to expand...
The pocket facings don't compress causing the balls to bounce in the pockets, what DOES compress however is the ends of the cushions BEHIND the facings. All pockets rattle balls in the same place, between the ends of the cushions, NEVER in the throat of the pocket!!
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The_JV said:
Bumping an oldie, but it's still probably better than repeating...

I'm hunting for a source of this 3/16" 60D. I looked around the ZORO.com website and couldn't find anything other than material listed as 60A.
View attachment 618186
A search on McMaster.com also reveals no 60D material.

The only hits I did managed to stumble across in the 60D catagory were for massive rolls in 1/8" thickness.

Is this something that may have changed since 2018, or am I in search of a red herring...?
Click to expand...
I've been using 3/16" 60d since 1983.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
The_JV said:
lol... no problem.

McMaster will actually be an easier vendor for me to deal with, so unless there's a reason to I'll most likely go that route.

On that note. There's two options.
  1. Multipurpose Neoprene
  2. 'High-Strength' Multipurpose Neoprene
Both have a rating of 60A, but apparently the high strength stuff has better shock absorbing properties and durability. Find it odd that it has the same durometer rating as the other stuff.

Oh well, guess it only makes sense to buy the high strength option.
Click to expand...
Cloth impregnated 3/16" facings are going to kill the balls om impact with the points of the cushions because they won't compress when a ball hits them!
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
tomatoshooter said:
So the pocket facings are softer than a car tire? Maybe it's hard to tell when it's on a pool table, but the facings on my table feel like they could be cut out of a credit card. I bought the table used but was told the cloth was original so I assume the cushions and facings would be original, too. The pockets have no problem spitting out balls, that's for sure. (Olhausen)
Click to expand...
I've discussed the Olhausen pocket rattle here many times already, cause and fix.
 
realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
trentfromtoledo said:
Concerning the 1/8" pocket facings, I have been told by 2 of the best in the business that 3/16" is the smallest to use. As you mentioned, Diamond uses 3/16" as well.

In my opinion they would play less bouncey, less 60 durometer neoprene means more solid wood inside the jaws of the pocket. Less neoprene material = less bounce.

Did you see that youtube video the guy posted the other day on here? Same durometer neoprene, but one had the nylon in it and bounced less. But, even in his testing, not sure how the hardness could be the same with the nylon infused in there. I am not a scientist of course.

Anyways, you could set up your own test like he did and see which ball bounced higher and that would give you some data to make a better decision on.

Unless you are a Pro or trying to be, I see no reason for a table to play this tough. I get it, some people think it will make you a stronger player because you must hit center pocket far more and that may be true, but, most tournaments are not using that small of a pocket. I think Diamonds Pro cut pocket is tough enough. Maybe someone who knows some Pro's that prefer the smaller pockets will chime in with some info.

Just my opinions on the matter, maybe someone like RKC will drop some knowledge on the topic.

Trent from Toledo

p.s. the use of Artemis: they are very lively cushions, but, the ball only makes contact on the end(inside the jaws, not on the nose at the end of the cushion) of the cushion in such a small space, I guess when you hit that spot maybe a 3/16" facing would make it bounce more? Getting into rocket science here! 👍
Click to expand...
I buy my neoprene in rolls, and after cutting it up into strips, to eliminate the roll profile memory, I put the strips into a pan of boiling water on the stove for about 5 minutes, no more roll memory!!!!!
 
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