Bar pool ball in hand

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider this rule...

"If the cue leaves the table, into a pocket or over a rail, the next player has a shot from the kitchen (behind the toe line) and must first hit a ball that is beyond that line or bank off of a rail beyond the line."

It seems grossly unfair. If I scratch and your ball is froze against the kitchen end rail, I am not penalized in the least, but YOU are, as you have to kick at the frozen ball the length of the table.

Why is it this way? Why not ball in hand anywhere on the table like league/pro pool is? And has anyone seen ball in hand played in bar pool anywhere?

I mentioned this last night to a couple of friends at the bar and they both expressed over-the-top disagreement... "that will NEVER work around here." My point was mainly to just discuss the inequity but actually, what would be wrong having a sign on the wall that says here is how we play. Start a movement, lol. Or do you think not having ball in hand is a good rule?
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider this rule...

"If the cue leaves the table, into a pocket or over a rail, the next player has a shot from the kitchen (behind the toe line) and must first hit a ball that is beyond that line or bank off of a rail beyond the line."

It seems grossly unfair. If I scratch and your ball is froze against the kitchen end rail, I am not penalized in the least, but YOU are, as you have to kick at the frozen ball the length of the table.

Why is it this way? Why not ball in hand anywhere on the table like league/pro pool is? And has anyone seen ball in hand played in bar pool anywhere?

I mentioned this last night to a couple of friends at the bar and they both expressed over-the-top disagreement... "that will NEVER work around here." My point was mainly to just discuss the inequity but actually, what would be wrong having a sign on the wall that says here is how we play. Start a movement, lol. Or do you think not having ball in hand is a good rule?
When your only ball is in the kitchen it SHOULD spot under those rules. A sign would be a good way to avoid arguments/fights/mass death. ;)
 

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When your only ball is in the kitchen it SHOULD spot under those rules. A sign would be a good way to avoid arguments/fights/mass death. ;)

I've never seen anyone spot a ball for any reason in bar pool. I always assumed it was because on a bar table, you cannot retrieve a pocketed ball, it's inside the table.

But, actually, your mention would be another solution to being penalized heavily from your opponent's scratch.

This thread is about 8-ball, the only game played around here.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've never seen anyone spot a ball for any reason in bar pool. I always assumed it was because on a bar table, you cannot retrieve a pocketed ball, it's inside the table.

But, actually, your mention would be another solution to being penalized heavily from your opponent's scratch.

This thread is about 8-ball, the only game played around here.
Not talking about a ball in the table. I was talking about a ball behind the headstring. There is NO such term as 'toe line" or whatever it was called. Before ball-in-hand if you scratched and your opponents only ball was behind the headstring that ball would spot. This was usually a pool-room rule. Bar rules can vary like the wind. Couple of the worst fights i've ever seen were over $2 8ball on a shi^*y bar-box.
 
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Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sometimes we forget that most people that play pool are not pool players.

My personal policy is: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I stopped fighting that battle a long time ago.

A few months ago I was st the pool hall with my protégé, I taught him to play and he plays leagues. I play with him for his practice so we play league rules. I had invited another good friend. That friend invited another friend. That other friend brought his $9.98 K-Mart pool cue with screw on tips professing to be a "real pool player". He made a grand show of sanding the hell out of the shaft before playing with it too. When he witnessed the rules we were playing he started getting very verbal, rude I would say. Wouldn't shut up. Then when he was playing he incessantly explained that we were playing "luck rules" When he finally insisted the cue ball had to be in the kitchen after a scratch I had enough. I was paying the table time and I quit. First time in probably 30 years that I quit. I just let them play. Why? It wasn't worth the frustration. I was not in Rome. And it was my table time. But it really wasn't worth the frustration. My friend clearly knows to never bring that guy to the pool hall again.

You and your opponent are playing the same rules. That makes it fair. If you are much better than him, he will scratch more and putting you in the kitchen might even up the match a little. But if you are really good, it will not make much difference anyway. So why worry about it?

Of course, you could always post signs, have pamphlets and t-shirts made, and go on that crusade. But to you really want to be that guy?

Too often "we" like to say "those aren't the rules". Well, yes they are. It's just not your environment.

.
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Consider this rule...

"If the cue leaves the table, into a pocket or over a rail, the next player has a shot from the kitchen (behind the toe line) and must first hit a ball that is beyond that line or bank off of a rail beyond the line."

It seems grossly unfair. If I scratch and your ball is froze against the kitchen end rail, I am not penalized in the least, but YOU are, as you have to kick at the frozen ball the length of the table.

Why is it this way? Why not ball in hand anywhere on the table like league/pro pool is? And has anyone seen ball in hand played in bar pool anywhere?

I mentioned this last night to a couple of friends at the bar and they both expressed over-the-top disagreement... "that will NEVER work around here." My point was mainly to just discuss the inequity but actually, what would be wrong having a sign on the wall that says here is how we play. Start a movement, lol. Or do you think not having ball in hand is a good rule?

The movement that you can start that has actually changed the minds of bar players around our town is.....


.....start a league with the real rules.


As bar bangers watch leagues over the years (it takes that long), they will eventually begin to understand the WHY of the rules and accept those as normal.

It took about 15 years for the non-league players around here to catch up.

So, maybe join a league and have the team play out of that bar or start a league and get that bar to be part of it.




Jeff Livingston
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
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Bar rules....it’s like trying to navigate the world from an Anglo-Saxon map from 900 AD
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bar rules....it’s like trying to navigate the world from an Anglo-Saxon map from 900 AD

Well, to most it's like croquet and badminton. They play it for fun occasionally. They don't know the official rules for those either...but they play them at picnics. And everybody seems to play different rules. Most don't care most of the time. Once in a while a guy shows up that knows...he sucks the fun right out of it for the majority. And he shows up with a custom professional croquet mallet at a family picnic. https://transformamallets.com.au/

There might be as many rules for pool as there are bars...just like their might be as many rules for croquet as there are back yards. :wink:

And anyway...even those that play pool seriously have different rule sets to select from depending on what league or organization they want to follow. :rolleyes:

.
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider this rule...

"If the cue leaves the table, into a pocket or over a rail, the next player has a shot from the kitchen (behind the toe line) and must first hit a ball that is beyond that line or bank off of a rail beyond the line."

It seems grossly unfair. If I scratch and your ball is froze against the kitchen end rail, I am not penalized in the least, but YOU are, as you have to kick at the frozen ball the length of the table.

Why is it this way? Why not ball in hand anywhere on the table like league/pro pool is? And has anyone seen ball in hand played in bar pool anywhere?

I mentioned this last night to a couple of friends at the bar and they both expressed over-the-top disagreement... "that will NEVER work around here." My point was mainly to just discuss the inequity but actually, what would be wrong having a sign on the wall that says here is how we play. Start a movement, lol. Or do you think not having ball in hand is a good rule?
Of course it makes sense, and it could happen - as long as the bar owner and/or manager strictly enforces it. Very hard to get bar pool types, who (let's be honest) are not pool players, who've been playing this way for decades, to change.
 

flyrv9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
PT109 - Which way is North on that map? Asking for a friend! In a couple of places I've been over the years, the 8 ball rules were posted on a large 2' x 4' poster in plain sight. The owner's way of reducing arguments and saving furniture I guess.
 

MitchAlsup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider this rule...

"If the cue ball leaves the table, into a pocket or over a rail, the next player has a shot from the kitchen (behind the toe line) and must first hit a ball that is beyond that line or bank off of a rail beyond the line."

The cue can do and be practically anywhere and its not a foul.
The cue ball is not so lucky.

The rule is you have to touch something outside of the "kitchen" before coming back inside and striking a ball. A massé suffices since you touched the felt/cloth outside of the kitchen.

Also note: under BIK rules, a table scratch can be played as a) ball remains on table, b) BIK. THat is, you DON'T HAVE to take the foul as BIK, you have the option to leave the ball on the table (if it still is on the table).

It seems grossly unfair. If I scratch and your ball is froze against the kitchen end rail, I am not penalized in the least, but YOU are, as you have to kick at the frozen ball the length of the table.

Why is it this way? Why not ball in hand anywhere on the table like league/pro pool is? And has anyone seen ball in hand played in bar pool anywhere?

There are those who don't think barr pool is pool, but let that slide for a moment:

Ball in Hand is so egregious on a bar table that you have practically given the game away with BIH. BIK moderates the egregiousness but does not let them get away with fouls either.

I mentioned this last night to a couple of friends at the bar and they both expressed over-the-top disagreement... "that will NEVER work around here." My point was mainly to just discuss the inequity but actually, what would be wrong having a sign on the wall that says here is how we play. Start a movement, lol. Or do you think not having ball in hand is a good rule?

I can't even get them to rack the rack with the head ball on the head spot.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Well, to most it's like croquet and badminton. They play it for fun occasionally. They don't know the official rules for those either...but they play them at picnics. And everybody seems to play different rules. Most don't care most of the time. Once in a while a guy shows up that knows...he sucks the fun right out of it for the majority. And he shows up with a custom professional croquet mallet at a family picnic. https://transformamallets.com.au/

There might be as many rules for pool as there are bars...just like their might be as many rules for croquet as there are back yards. :wink:

And anyway...even those that play pool seriously have different rule sets to select from depending on what league or organization they want to follow. :rolleyes:

.

I have seen people have MORE fun when they learn some simple rules that make sense.

There was a big 8-ball tournament back in the 60s....one guy was on the 8...one guy had
one of his group left....they were both in the kitchen and the shooter had ball in hand...
...had to shoot up table......so he fired the cue ball into a pocket.
They did this for four and a half hours....:eek:

Finally, one guy gave up and kicked at his ball......and lost.

As a golfer also, if somebody wants to play stymies, they can talk to somebody else...:rolleyes:


pt...redneck who learned to play chess with crossed kings and queens.....:eek:
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On the show recess at the playground the kids are
separated in a hierarchy.

Fifth graders at the top, portrayed as royalty who presides
over all lower classes.
Kindergarteners at the bottom, portrayed as a wild savage tribe.

Bar rules players are pools kindergarteners.
They are savages.
Leave them to their own devices.
They are not to be negotiated with.
They do not adhere to any structure or
any semblance of logic.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing a bonafide Russian top chess player in pool. He was like a world ranked chess player, but a D pool player. But he was a gambling degenerate. We were playing 9 ball this particular session, and I think we were betting 500 for the set. I play a safe on him, where the OB's were on the table in such a way that a combo on the 9 was dead. He got is stick near the combo and was about to disturb them. I said what are you doing, you can't do that. He said it will just be a foul. I said no, you can't do that. He says why not, I says because there are rules. He then says to me "There are no rules in pool, only in chess!" ha hah ha ha ha

Man, those were the days.
 

livemusic

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Of course it makes sense, and it could happen - as long as the bar owner and/or manager strictly enforces it. Very hard to get bar pool types, who (let's be honest) are not pool players, who've been playing this way for decades, to change.

This thread was started for something to yak about, it's not me worried about losing a game. Rules have evolved in many, many sports.

This particular 'rule' is not just one bar, it's EVERY bar I have ever played in. It just seems a silly rule to punish the shooter because his opponent scratched. If the ball is in the kitchen, there is hardly any bar player who can make the shot since he has to kick at it the length of the table. It makes me wonder WHY such a rule became established.

I, literally, wondered why the bar couldn't have a sign posted called "Recommended 8-Ball Rules" or something similar. People can do as they wish, nobody forcing anyone to do anything. But then it would be easy to improve the game. I think people would enjoy it even more. As for the people I play with, they are more than just hackers playing every once in awhile, they play often and there is a group that does a game night every Friday. And whomever said ball in hand means automatic runout, IMO, for bar players, this is def not true. Seems to me people's games could be improved pretty easily. As I have said on this forum before, the average bar player is nothing more than hit and hope. Most don't do well controlling the cue ball and quite a few, I don't think they even try. Its position is just luck. If BIH were played, it would get them to thinking.

EDIT: Here's an easy way to implement suggested rules. Have the sign as mentioned above and then host some casual low entry fee tournaments and announce that the rules are on the sign. Then it would stimulate interest.
 
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sixpack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This thread was started for something to yak about, it's not me worried about losing a game. Rules have evolved in many, many sports.

This particular 'rule' is not just one bar, it's EVERY bar I have ever played in. It just seems a silly rule to punish the shooter because his opponent scratched. If the ball is in the kitchen, there is hardly any bar player who can make the shot since he has to kick at it the length of the table. It makes me wonder WHY such a rule became established.

I, literally, wondered why the bar couldn't have a sign posted called "Recommended 8-Ball Rules" or something similar. People can do as they wish, nobody forcing anyone to do anything. But then it would be easy to improve the game. I think people would enjoy it even more. As for the people I play with, they are more than just hackers playing every once in awhile, they play often and there is a group that does a game night every Friday. And whomever said ball in hand means automatic runout, IMO, for bar players, this is def not true. Seems to me people's games could be improved pretty easily. As I have said on this forum before, the average bar player is nothing more than hit and hope. Most don't do well controlling the cue ball and quite a few, I don't think they even try. Its position is just luck. If BIH were played, it would get them to thinking.

EDIT: Here's an easy way to implement suggested rules. Have the sign as mentioned above and then host some casual low entry fee tournaments and announce that the rules are on the sign. Then it would stimulate interest.

There are many rules in bars that better bangers can use to increase their odds of victory against worse bangers.

Bank 8. Scratch in the Kitchen. No safeties. Call shot - even short rail. Take what you make on the break. etc...

All of those rules can be exploited by someone who knows how. Many bar table bangers drink for free because of them.
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
But if you make one of each on the break you gotta know which one went first

Lol love bangers, my family is full of em

Always good for a hoot
 

9andout

Gunnin' for a 3 pack!!
Silver Member
There is hope!!!!
The 8 ball pool app actually uses BIH anywhere on the table rule.
The masses are being exposed to the correct rule.
Now they just have to put their phones down and play for real............................:D
 
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