Competing with the APA

DblGonzo said:

I am league operator for a small BCAPL in North Alabama.

The APA has a nut lock in this area. I have managed to get 5 teams playing 8 Ball.
Everyone who plays loves it. We have fun and everyone is home by 9:30.

I am looking for ways to promote my league and pull players from the darkside and into the BCA.

I plan in retiring in 5 years and would like to grow this league to keep me busy and playing pool.

Sending teams to Vegas would be nice. Just hard to raise enough with only 5 teams. So I pay back 80% of all weekly fees paid (Minus table money for the host location)

So any suggestions for someone on a budget (Broke) to promote the league and get the word out.

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Do you play at the same venues as APA? Heck the payouts are tempting enough, I don't see a problem with showing up on APA league night and recruiting players (assuming you are playing on different nights than APA) Many members on here play several different leagues.

I've even thought about doing the same thing here in middle Tn. There are a lot of pool players in the stretch from Nashville to Huntsville

DblGonzo said:

APA plays on Wed and Thur. My league plays on Tuesdays. I have pulled a few from APA. About half of our players are APA members. I do play in the APA just to try and recruit players. The normal response is "I already play 2 nights, my wife will not let me play 3 nights a week." My response is "How would your wife like you home at 9:30 instead of 11."

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Where do you play? Wouldn't happen to be goodtimez or 6 pockets in Huntsville or Decatur al?

How do you get Crest users to start brushing their teeth with Colgate?

Advertise. Explain why your product is better than the other product.

I have been running a BCAPL league for over 15 years. Nearby APA leagues have been trying to infiltrate our area for a long time, and the reason that they always fail is because our league offers a vastly superior experience.

I don't know what format you use for your league or any other details about your league, but I will list the things that our league provides that makes our local players want to never try the APA.

1. More and guaranteed payouts.

We pay back between 75% and 80% of money taken in...to players and teams in OUR league. All of our officers are volunteers, which helps us maintain this high level of payout. The APA is very careful NOT to publish their payout rate, because (I'm guessing) if they did a lot of people would complain. A large chunk of APA money goes directly to the national office. Another large chunk goes to the league operator. Anyone who has ever played in an APA league knows how difficult it is to play your way into the money. If you play in a local APA league that has 8 teams, not a single dime of cash is guaranteed to be paid out to anyone in those 8 teams. All you are guaranteed to get are trophies and patches. You must advance to regional playoffs with other leagues to compete for the cash. If I were you I would advertise exactly how you do payouts and when you do payouts and how big the payouts will be and the fact that this money is guaranteed to go to your league and your league only so that local APA players can see how that differs from what they currently have. Also, make sure you advertise the fact that the BCAPL fees are only $15 per year. This is less than the APA, and the BCAPL does not take any more money after that, unlike the APA.

2. Better weekly match format

Our format is round-robin with 15-game matches where each player plays three games. The reason we do not play 25-game matches (which would be preferred) is that we have a few locations with a single table, and we strive to have matches end well before 11:00 pm. The argument for having a match format vs round-robin is that some people don't like to play a game then sit for 45 minutes, play a game then sit for 45 minutes, etc. But if you are able to play round-robin matches on two tables, the sit-time is very little. You get to play a variety of players, which I feel is better than playing only one player per night. You also get to play a pre-defined number of games per night. If you have an APA 7 vs APA 2 match and the 2 gets lucky or is not properly rated, the match could be over in two games. Also, in a match format, someone has to play first and either go home or sit around and spectate for several hours, and someone has to sit around for several hours and play last. I hear horror stories about APA league matches that end well past midnight on a regular basis. That is just no fun on a weeknight.

3. Open access to the Nationals in Vegas

A quick disclaimer...our league is in SoCal, about a 5-6 hour drive to Las Vegas. For me, the best thing about the BCAPL is the fact that anyone can enter their World Championships. We have between 40-50 players make the trek each year...that's about 1/3 of our entire league. And we don't pay any teams' or individuals' entry fees. We do pay out a lot of money, which teams or individuals use towards the entry fee, hotel, etc, if they wish. If our players need help filling out the entry form we will do that for them. If players have earned money on the books and want to use that towards the entry fees, we will do that for them as well. I think it is very important to advertise the fact that ANY player / team can go to Vegas, whether or not they won any money in the league. With the exception of the APA Masters division, unless you can survive a grueling playoff process you are out of luck when it comes to participating in the APA Vegas tournaments.

4. Fargo ratings

Fargo ratings are quickly becoming accepted worldwide as THE rating system for ALL players of 8/9/10 ball. From the lowest of beginners to Shane Van Boening. This rating system is FAR superior to the APA rating system. I would definitely include Fargo ratings as an advertising point.

5. No 23-point system

Disclaimer...we are a non-handicapped league. APA's 23-point max works fine to limit the overall strength of a team, however, it forces teams whose players improve over time to split up. In our league, we have several teams whose players have been together for many years. Team unity is huge for the overall strength of a league. This could be a selling point.

I could probably go on forever but I will end here. Good luck with your league.

Get the room to offer free practice time once a week for league members. Increases their activity too.

APA ....I'm trying to be nice...

Do you remember the WFL and the USFL? Both tried and failed to compete directly with
The NFL. If there are APA teams there, then you can count on there being unhappy APA
players there as well. Don't try and compete directly with the APA, you can't win, but try
to exist along side the APA for a while, as more of a parasite than competition. Picking up
their unhappy players, offering a second chance tournament when they are knocked out
of the local Top Gun or Grand Prix, stuff like that, do things the APA doesn't or can't do or
won't do, a Calcutta, stuff like that. Just advertising isn't enough, and see if you can get a
hot girl to work with you. Free stuff and pretty girls, what else do pool players love?

Sell your league as the "next step up" in the player improvement process.

The APA is the nuts for bringing in new players; the other leagues each has its place in the ladder of excellence, imho.

Players want to improve and a different league system can help with that.

The ending time is too short if it's 9:30. But, I remember years ago in apa when I turned around and looked and my opponent and I were the only ones left in the bar and it was after midnight. I decided that that "team" aspect wasn't quite what I was looking for, so I bailed and went to BCA and elsewhere since then.

Also, boring. One league can get boring.

So sell: Become a better player, get home earlier, be part of a whole team that watches and is involved in everyone's matches, and the whole town gets better with more league systems and will get more tournaments and such things because of the variety.



Jeff Livingston


PS Crap, I forgot this one: LESS PAPERWORK during the matches.

chefjeff said:

PS Crap, I forgot this one: LESS PAPERWORK during the matches.

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How did I forget THAT one?!?!?!?

I ran into a woman here who plays apa and she told me she has gone up to a 6 now. That's good, I'd say. She's reaching close to the highest rating in apa.

I've hinted that she might want to soon try another league and see how she does there. I think she doesn't really understand the differences...yet.


Jeff Livingston

The same way the majority of people are uninformed or make bad decisions (or a combination of), a majority of pool playing amateurs play APA.

Why do so many people have credit card debt?

Why do so many people fall for all the various marketing gimmicks?

Why are so many people attracted to majorities or follow the herd or act like lemmings?

Quite often, people do not choose the best value, best deal for them. They are fooled by hype. And base decisions on perceptions, rather than objective reality.

The APA pays back the least, has the worst format, worst rules and the worst players, the worst handicap system, and the worst competitive culture. But it attracts the players because of a "free" trip to Vegas if you win your division then the local cities tournament.


Maybe I'm being too harsh....


Let's look at the bright side, the positives.


If you have mastered the art of sandbagging, the APA is for you.

If you like to power drink more than playing pool, the format works well. Bug the captain to play your match early, then you are free the rest of the night to watch your teammates bang balls into rails while you inebriate yourself. The APA is for you.

If you have ADD and can't cope in an all-night turn based format, the APA is for you.

If you believe that running 1 rack of 8-ball is such an accomplishment it warrants the awarding of a patch, the APA is for you.

If you like hanging around from 7:30 PM till 1:00 AM before you are called to play your match - the APA is for you.

If you like having a league rule book that is 5x thicker than the entire BCA book, yet only covers 8 and 9 ball and still fails to address scenarios that lead to arguments - the APA is for you.

If you like watching two SL3's take 40 innings to play 3 racks of 8-ball, the APA is for you.



***

I have no stats to back this, but I'd bet my left nut the average IQ of a BCA league player is higher than an APA player.

Brighter people tend to figure out what's best for them more than dumb people, thus more of them play in other leagues and avoid the scams.

Brighter people also tend to learn how to play pool better than dumb people, thus the average strength of the BCA is higher than the APA. This is intimidates your typical APA player.

BCA players actually love pool. APA players love alcohol. This is why BCA players would never accept a tedious format like the APA. They are there to play pool, not loiter and drink.

We have APA and BCA leagues in our local pool hall. It started out slow but the cream is rising to the top. Now the APA players see the BCA league as a tougher league. And it is. Almost every player in the BCA league can run a table of 8-ball. And most of them will really be able to press their advantage if you fail to run out and only have a ball or two left.

Gradually the better APA players have moved over to test themselves and it's fun to watch how first they are shocked that they played well and still lost or didn't get a shot. Then you see them reset their expectations and get better. A lot better. So we just added another BCA league night to replace an APA league and it's going well.

I think that's an appealing selling point. That the BCA league is the next level. That should lead to growth.

Unfortunately that won't be too appealing to the APA players who just like to get out of the house and drink a lot and play pool a little.

Maybe this will help. The primary reason I will not play apa or tap is you only play one match per night. The rest of your time is spent hanging around drinking or chatting. I like to PLAY pool not just hang out!

sixpack said:

We have APA and BCA leagues in our local pool hall. It started out slow but the cream is rising to the top. Now the APA players see the BCA league as a tougher league. And it is. Almost every player in the BCA league can run a table of 8-ball. And most of them will really be able to press their advantage if you fail to run out and only have a ball or two left.

Gradually the better APA players have moved over to test themselves and it's fun to watch how first they are shocked that they played well and still lost or didn't get a shot. Then you see them reset their expectations and get better. A lot better. So we just added another BCA league night to replace an APA league and it's going well.

I think that's an appealing selling point. That the BCA league is the next level. That should lead to growth.

Unfortunately that won't be too appealing to the APA players who just like to get out of the house and drink a lot and play pool a little.

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This really is a great idea. Very nice post.

KMRUNOUT


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

The APA formula doesn't pay out any money, so its pretty easy to come up with a better payout deal. Some APA league operators refuse to offer anything other than 8-ball even though APA has other league products (Masters and 9-ball) available to their operators.

In NYC in the last 10 years, I've seen at least two independent leagues created by people I know. One advertised itself as the fastest growing BCA sanctioned league. They achieved success simply by offering a better deal than the APA.

This is in addition to the strong house leagues at Amsterdam, Society and at other pool halls. The APA in Manhattan only offers 8-ball, while a Amsterdam offers 6 nights of leagues; Team 8-ball, Team 9-ball, Individual 9/10-ball and a straight pool league.

This season, I count 94 players in my straight pool league at Amsterdam. Even years after Dan Barouty left NYC, his league is strong and still growing.

I read this whole thread and saw a few tidbits of good advice and as usual.....any thread with the letters apa in the title brings out the naysayers with statements ranging from half truths to ludicrous lol.

As it seems to be in other areas ....apa has it pretty much locked up in our area also. Hate them all you want but apa does a pretty good job of attracting members.....so much so that members of other leagues seems downright jealous of its popularity.

I have said before.....your experience in any league is pretty much based on how the league operator runs it.....and also based on the number of assholes in your area that play pool.

Yea I have encountered apa players who like to drink but every one of them that caused problems was kicked out. I would venture to say there are more non drinkers in my area than non drinkers. I have a total of 15 players on my 2 teams and only 2 of them drink and have never seen either one of them drink more than 2 beers a night

Sandbaggers in apa ? Sure there are....also sandbaggers in every league I have played in which consists of apa...bcapl...napa...tap and usapl. There are a couple of apa 7's in usapl that have a lower Fargo rate than I do as an apa 5.

Format ? Not every one likes the same flavors and I personally like the race to your handicap over a round robin format. I dont want to drive 45 minutes to a venue just to play 3 racks ...or 5 based on whether its a 3 or 5 man team. Both divisions of apa I play in are double jeapordy where we pls both 8 and 9 ball that night...my usapl league is also double jeapordy.

Some one stated almost every one in his bcapl league is capable of making break and runs or table runs in 8 ball. Well.....his area must be chock full of stone cold killers. I will say that I also had more break and runs or table runs in bcapl than I have had in apa due to its much easier to accomplish in an open break format than it is with a closed break.

As for staying late.....yea it happens in a race to handicap vs a round robin format.....usually because there are a lot more racks being played by each member and I will admit some low level players take forever to win a game 2-1. That's one reason I very seldom play safes on a regular league night....i don't want to get in a safety battle and add to a late night. I save those for playoffs and higher.

Apa also offers more choices than other leagues. We have divisions 7 nights a week that offer just 8 or 9 ball.....double jeapordy....scotch doubles....ladies only junior players....9 foot table only division and last but not least ....masters.

The subject of money...i am an amateur that plays pool for the pure enjoyment of it. I am not a pro or someone who tries to derive a second income off of playing in an amateur league. I have won money in both Napa and tap leagues and have won as high as 1,500.00 in a money league. Yea it was nice winning but I encountered way more .....*****ing....whining...sandbagging...cheating... during those times than I have ever encountered in apa. But like I say....your experience in any league may be different than mine but my opinion is based on my experience in all the leagues I have played in.

I tried to preach to the APA slack-jaws and troglodytes in my pool hall several years ago without any success. I had them convinced on all points except for the championships in Vegas.

I told them anyone can go and attend. They asked what's the catch, I told them you pay your own way, but it truly works out better that way. That's it....crowd dispersed and scoffed and mocked.

That is why the APA is huge and banks on these suckers. That free trip to Vegas is like crack-cocaine to them. They get hooked on that and there's no reasoning with them...That factor is huge. Same reason lotteries are so popular. Except if you actually win a lottery you are on the plus side, not in the APA.


In the roughly 22 years I've observed them....

I would say that of the teams that actually qualified to go to Vegas, the typical team took at least an average of 6 maybe 7 years of league play to make it. A tiny number of teams (1-2) were repeat qualifiers, due to a combination of having a squad of players with static skill levels but lots of experience in those SL's...example, 3's who never go up but know the game as well as an SL6; the other part of that combo is the skilled sandbaggers.


Most teams never made it, even after playing 15+ years in the league. Realistically speaking, how many teams can qualify out of multiple 16 team divisions each year? Not many. I saw one team finally win their chance to Vegas after a whopping 18 years in the league. There was tears of joy. How pathetic.


OK, that said ...let's do some math...

16 weeks in a session x 3 sessions a year x $8 a night + $25 or so per year x years played.

By my math...that's a little over $2,000 in 5 years per player. This is an estimate since summer session is shorter, and nightly fees can vary from $7 to $9 ....

Now...

In 5 years, that's 15 opportunities to land "in the money" 1st, 2nd or 3rd place. This will vary by team, situation....

I remember 1st place teams winning around $100 - $130 per player for 1st place. Awful. $75-$80 for 2nd, and around $50 each for 3rd place. Stingy league. But hey, the league operator makes this their living, and they are also putting money aside to pay for the team that does qualify to go to Vegas as well as kicking up the fees to corporate APA.

So deduct any of the winnings from the total above.


OK, now that we got that part done - time to put it all together.


This "FREE" trip to Vegas, for the few teams who do make it, who typically played for 5-7+ years to make it, cost them at least $2,000 or more. Some as much as $4000 - $5000 and never went in their team history. The team that took 18 years to make it that I described earlier, while their roster was not identical over the years, their core 4 players each put in around a close estimate of $7,000 each.


To play pool in Vegas does NOT cost $2,000 - $3,000 ...you can get a cheap flight, stay at an average hotel casino and eat reasonably decent and come in well under that amount.


Now....other leagues pay back more, so the costs incurred are less, since finishing in the money in these other leagues pay back much, much more than APA. Figure in the overall less cost paid in, plus the freedom to go and play in the Nationals --

A trip to Vegas for BCA is actually a lot more "free" than the APA. And you don't have to sit there and slug it out in some lame APA "cities" tournament. If you want to go, you GO!


So in the end...

Less cost.
Guaranteed trip to Vegas whenever you want to go.

All while playing in a less annoying environment.


To me, that sounds like MORE FUN and a better deal.


But hey, to each their own.

Grilled Cheese said:

I tried to preach to the APA slack-jaws and troglodytes in my pool hall several years ago without any success. I had them convinced on all points except for the championships in Vegas.

I told them anyone can go and attend. They asked what's the catch, I told them you pay your own way, but it truly works out better that way. That's it....crowd dispersed and scoffed and mocked.

That is why the APA is huge and banks on these suckers. That free trip to Vegas is like crack-cocaine to them. They get hooked on that and there's no reasoning with them...That factor is huge. Same reason lotteries are so popular. Except if you actually win a lottery you are on the plus side, not in the APA.


In the roughly 22 years I've observed them....

I would say that of the teams that actually qualified to go to Vegas, the typical team took at least an average of 6 maybe 7 years of league play to make it. A tiny number of teams (1-2) were repeat qualifiers, due to a combination of having a squad of players with static skill levels but lots of experience in those SL's...example, 3's who never go up but know the game as well as an SL6; the other part of that combo is the skilled sandbaggers.


Most teams never made it, even after playing 15+ years in the league. Realistically speaking, how many teams can qualify out of multiple 16 team divisions each year? Not many. I saw one team finally win their chance to Vegas after a whopping 18 years in the league. There was tears of joy. How pathetic.


OK, that said ...let's do some math...

16 weeks in a session x 3 sessions a year x $8 a night + $25 or so per year x years played.

By my math...that's a little over $2,000 in 5 years per player. This is an estimate since summer session is shorter, and nightly fees can vary from $7 to $9 ....

Now...

In 5 years, that's 15 opportunities to land "in the money" 1st, 2nd or 3rd place. This will vary by team, situation....

I remember 1st place teams winning around $100 - $130 per player for 1st place. Awful. $75-$80 for 2nd, and around $50 each for 3rd place. Stingy league. But hey, the league operator makes this their living, and they are also putting money aside to pay for the team that does qualify to go to Vegas as well as kicking up the fees to corporate APA.

So deduct any of the winnings from the total above.


OK, now that we got that part done - time to put it all together.


This "FREE" trip to Vegas, for the few teams who do make it, who typically played for 5-7+ years to make it, cost them at least $2,000 or more. Some as much as $4000 - $5000 and never went in their team history. The team that took 18 years to make it that I described earlier, while their roster was not identical over the years, their core 4 players each put in around a close estimate of $7,000 each.


To play pool in Vegas does NOT cost $2,000 - $3,000 ...you can get a cheap flight, stay at an average hotel casino and eat reasonably decent and come in well under that amount.


Now....other leagues pay back more, so the costs incurred are less, since finishing in the money in these other leagues pay back much, much more than APA. Figure in the overall less cost paid in, plus the freedom to go and play in the Nationals --

A trip to Vegas for BCA is actually a lot more "free" than the APA. And you don't have to sit there and slug it out in some lame APA "cities" tournament. If you want to go, you GO!


So in the end...

Less cost.
Guaranteed trip to Vegas whenever you want to go.

All while playing in a less annoying environment.


To me, that sounds like MORE FUN and a better deal.


But hey, to each their own.

Click to expand...

There is some truth to your post. However you left out one fact .....all leagues promote a trip to their nationals as a benefit for joining their organization. Well at least every league I have played in I received literature about winning a trip to their nationals when joining. They are .. Napa....tap...usapl..bcapl and of course apa as you mentioned.

So what's the different between them....other than you can pay league fees all year long and then pay your own way to nationals in bcapl. And then come on here and complain about the rampant sandbagging that you witnessed in the bcapl nationals like so many have done on here year after year.

Every year people have posted on here how it seems like the number of players at bcapl nationals dwindles each year. Many complain about what bracket they fall in and the poor payout. I am not dogging the bcapl at all.....i think it's a fine organization and has its place in the world od amateur pool....just relaying what i have read on here many times.


It just odd how people want to bash on apa with some truth to what they say but neglect to mention their own leagues shortcomings .

Apa is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but they have to be doing something right to have more members than any other 2 leagues combined.

APA is the monster because it promotes rewarding horrible players with huge spots.Where else can you be a 3 level player for 20 years and still have a coin flip chance in most every match except with the local monster 7?

Bca around here is where all the 7s go when they can’t take it anymore.The rest of the people in it are usually the players looking to play good players regularly so they can improve. ...Also in Bca I always know it is 9:30 when people start leaving.Even a super slow night with many delays running late will be 10:15.Just for that it is a great league.

lorider said:

Some one stated almost every one in his bcapl league is capable of making break and runs or table runs in 8 ball. Well.....his area must be chock full of stone cold killers. I will say that I also had more break and runs or table runs in bcapl than I have had in apa due to its much easier to accomplish in an open break format than it is with a closed break.

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That was me. It is at a premier pool hall in a large metro area. They got 8 diamond bar tables and started the BCA league because the better players wanted to be able to get qualified for the BCA regional and national events. So it's those players and players who like to compete with those players.

So yeah, "Chock full of killers" is a pretty good description.

But that being said I don't mean they run out every time. Just that they can and do sometimes. Obviously the worst players don't run out as much as the best players but they are still capable of it.

And if you dog a runout...good chance you're never getting a shot at your ball again.