APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

lorider

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe last night is a good example of why this thread has almost 400 posts and still going .

I n- played 8 ball vs a 7 and i am a 5 . it was a 5-3 race and i won 3-1. He unscrewed his cues complaining i was not a 5 and left....not even hanging around for 9 ball. Now some of you guys are probably thinking the same thing. No way a 5 should beat a 7 by 3-1 . what he was completely ignoring and you guys arr not aware of is he gave one rack by ttying a cross corner bank on the 8 and missed ....coming back across table into the opposite pocket.

I had a break and run the last rack to win the match. My first break and run in at least the last 50-60. Matches.

Now it dont matter to him thats my first break and run in forever. It dont matter to him that the results of my last 3 eight ball matches. Vs 7 's were. Two 5-0 shutout losses and a 5-1. Loss


All that's on this guys mind is that i am a sandbagger cause there is no way
i should beat him 3-1 and nothing is gonna change his mind.
 

JessEm

AzB Goldmember
Silver Member
I believe last night is a good example of why this thread has almost 400 posts and still going .

I n- played 8 ball vs a 7 and i am a 5 . it was a 5-3 race and i won 3-1. He unscrewed his cues complaining i was not a 5 and left....not even hanging around for 9 ball. Now some of you guys are probably thinking the same thing. No way a 5 should beat a 7 by 3-1 . what he was completely ignoring and you guys arr not aware of is he gave one rack by ttying a cross corner bank on the 8 and missed ....coming back across table into the opposite pocket.

I had a break and run the last rack to win the match. My first break and run in at least the last 50-60. Matches.

Now it dont matter to him thats my first break and run in forever. It dont matter to him that the results of my last 3 eight ball matches. Vs 7 's were. Two 5-0 shutout losses and a 5-1. Loss


All that's on this guys mind is that i am a sandbagger cause there is no way
i should beat him 3-1 and nothing is gonna change his mind.

If it happened in a qualifier you'd immediately be moved up. Regardless whether your team remained eligible to participate going forward. :(

Good job on the B&R. :)
 

Cory in DC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm sure there is some impact on SL based on the playing ability of the area, but isn't the SL based more on innings than wins/losses? So just winning most of your matches wouldn't automatically make you a 7, what if your matches are taking 50+ innings? So wouldn't the inning count help to make sure 7's from different areas are close in ability?

This is my understanding of the basic logic, not the exact formula. If your win % is high, the system keeps you right on the cusp of going up, no matter what your innings are. Then if you have a few games with low innings, meaning in the range for the next higher handicap level, you go up. The system uses the best X of your last 2X matches (e.g., 15 of last 30). So even if a player has 1/3 of games at their current level, 1/3 below, and 1/3 above, that will eventually cause the player to go up.

The benefit of that is that it measures how good a player is *capable* of playing. But it also makes the strength of the local pool of players matter more. Basically, if you're the best in your division, a high win % plus luck will eventually make you go up. At that point, handicaps aren't comparable across pools of players.

Tight full size tables vs. bucket Valleys surely also leads to variation in ratings across pools of players.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
got to have the same percentage output

I believe last night is a good example of why this thread has almost 400 posts and still going .

I n- played 8 ball vs a 7 and i am a 5 . it was a 5-3 race and i won 3-1. He unscrewed his cues complaining i was not a 5 and left....not even hanging around for 9 ball. Now some of you guys are probably thinking the same thing. No way a 5 should beat a 7 by 3-1 . what he was completely ignoring and you guys arr not aware of is he gave one rack by ttying a cross corner bank on the 8 and missed ....coming back across table into the opposite pocket.

I had a break and run the last rack to win the match. My first break and run in at least the last 50-60. Matches.

Now it dont matter to him thats my first break and run in forever. It dont matter to him that the results of my last 3 eight ball matches. Vs 7 's were. Two 5-0 shutout losses and a 5-1. Loss


All that's on this guys mind is that i am a sandbagger cause there is no way
i should beat him 3-1 and nothing is gonna change his mind.


First, yeah there can be a few rolls in a pool match. You have to accept that good and bad rolls even up over time for you and your opponent. Then if I understand handicapping at all it depends on the percentage of your usual effort you put out. The seven might have had a beer or two extra or been focused on a fight with his boss, maybe his stars were a bit out of alignment, he put out a lower percentage of his average play than you did. In all likelihood after he cools off he will realize he either played like crap overall or made a few bad judgments. Either one can result in a lopsided score. You might have had a very good night for you, that happens too.

Anyone that can't take losing with some equilibrium is going to have a hard time competing at anything. A tournament or other competition has one winner and a lot of losers. Team play one team on one team is a little different but still you aren't gonna win them all and sometimes it will seem unfair.

Hu
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
Since he has his own lane on the roads, that's not usually a problem:

View attachment 528131

Bob, I live about 40 miles northwest of Amish / Mennonite country in New York. See the buggies on the roads all the time. Specially between Canandaigua and Watkins Glen. They are wonderful people living oblivious to our political turmoil. Sometimes I feel THEY are right and WE are wrong! Who is to judge?

Lyn
 

cardiac kid

Super Senior Member
Silver Member
I question whether you are from Iowa. Have you ever been late for a league match because you were stuck on the highway behind a tractor?

Gee Al, I can not even ask a hypothetical question. You see right through me!!!! What gave it away? :rolleyes: ;) :p

Lyn
 

jeremy8000

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Question for APA experts. Why did the guy keep moving the 4 ball with his hand. I know there must be a highly scientific explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xH1d5OwD1E

For some reason the video won't start at the exact point. 3:19:00 into the video.

APA isn't an 'all balls foul' rule - when he accidentally brushed the 4, the referee came over and restored it to position. In normal league play, that lies at the discretion of the opponent, who can choose to restore it to its original position or let it remain at the spot to which it was moved. In either event, no foul.
 

Dockter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I haven't read all the replied but I feel for you guys. There are some teams shooting APA on diamonds in some areas, they get to Vegas and get to play on Valleys and the pockets seem huge, plus the drop shelf that you can slide balls in that would never go on a diamond. Also there's the disparity based on population. I live in South Dakota, it think we have about 10 teams for 8 ball and 9 ball. I just played my 2nd session of apa and had the opportunity to go to Vegas. I'll tell you know a SD 6 in 9 ball isn't close to some of the 6's out of larger areas. I know they say it's based off innings and yada yada, but I ran into some 4's and 5's that could give a 7 a SD 7 a run for their money. APA just isn't a big thing around here. I can completely see players that shoot on crappy equipment or Diamonds going to Vegas and shooting a skill level higher.

I get the need for the handicapping and stuff but I swear they don't look at anything and they just let the computer do the work. Sorry a great experience came with such a crappy ending.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'm sure there is some impact on SL based on the playing ability of the area, but isn't the SL based more on innings than wins/losses? So just winning most of your matches wouldn't automatically make you a 7, what if your matches are taking 50+ innings? So wouldn't the inning count help to make sure 7's from different areas are close in ability?

Nope. There is a cap on innings if you're winning. So a weak SL-7 who wins against scrubbs 75% of the time is viewed exactly the same as a good SL-7 in a more difficult area, where he's shooting 75%. If a 7 wins at 50 innings, he's capped way below that.


In other words, if a guy named Ko is in an area always playing against Shane, Filler, Chang, he might be at 75% winning percentage and clearly an SL-7.

Compare that to me winning 75% against Carpenter Jones, Postman Willy, Cell Phone Saleswoman Jenny.... I'd look the same on paper as Ko.


Freddie <~~~ if it weren't for Postman Willy...
 
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alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA isn't an 'all balls foul' rule - when he accidentally brushed the 4, the referee came over and restored it to position. In normal league play, that lies at the discretion of the opponent, who can choose to restore it to its original position or let it remain at the spot to which it was moved. In either event, no foul.

Right - it does appear to me from that video it would be much easier to hide your speed in APA 8 ball where there is no 3 foul rule and you can just tie up balls and stall instead of running out.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
APA isn't an 'all balls foul' rule - when he accidentally brushed the 4, the referee came over and restored it to position. In normal league play, that lies at the discretion of the opponent, who can choose to restore it to its original position or let it remain at the spot to which it was moved. In either event, no foul.

For the APA that’s incorrect. In normal league play, the balls are required to be put back by the opponent. No option, required.
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
Im just surprised that a non sandbagging APA 6 (in 8 ball) and an unofficial Fargorate of 534...is a 100 ball runner. Of course, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time...


Eric

I'm reasonably certain that Sean played as a 7. (Awaiting confirmation at this writing, lol).

I also believe that if Sean was even suspicious of sandbagging, let alone conscious of it, he wouldn't be associated with those players.

From my discussions with him, and reading the many accounts of what happened, I think they were a victim of poor timing of a sort....many who were playing well, all raised their personal ability, at the same time. It was tough to see it all play out on Facebook that day...
 

frankncali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nope. There is a cap on innings if you're winning. So a weak SL-7 who wins against scrubbs 75% of the time is viewed exactly the same as a good SL-7 in a more difficult area, where he's shooting 75%. If a 7 wins at 50 innings, he's capped way below that.


In other words, if a guy named Ko is in an area always playing against Shane, Filler, Chang, he might be at 75% winning percentage and clearly an SL-7.

Compare that to me winning 75% against Carpenter Jones, Postman Willy, Cell Phone Saleswoman Jenny.... I'd look the same on paper as Ko.


Freddie <~~~ if it weren't for Postman Willy...


Freddie I know you and I both have been on here and RSB for quite some time. I still have a print out fo the Dave B APA stuff that was on RSB but wonder if it has changed.
I still think there is a cap on winning or an applied average score for when a person wins BUT I wondering if it has some local or regional tweaks that have been added to the formula. I knew a guy in a league that was a 5 or 6 on best day. The area was super low rated and he was winning at 80+ %. He ended up being a 7 but IMO and HIS he was only there to try and even out their league. This was before the stats online but he kept track fro a while (30-50) games and was averaging almost 2.6 innings.

I guess if it aint broke dont fix it makes since but I really wonder if the formula has been tweaked over the years.
The changes to the 8 ball team format is good but I hate the new rule where guys start as 3s in 8ball.
 

Eric.

Club a member
Silver Member
I'm reasonably certain that Sean played as a 7. (Awaiting confirmation at this writing, lol).

It has been established already. Sean is an SL6 in Apa 8 ball.


Eric
 

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hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not having a solution doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Introducing FargoRate has been suggested... I suggested removing win percentage from the formula, as it's highly subjective due to disparity in competition levels from league to league...



Based on any number of possible personal biases.

There is an issue with using Fargo, every time I have tried to do a tournament or league with Fargo, players ran away. You need honest players that want to play to their skill level to use Fargo. Find 10 of those in a city, I dare ya.

I have had people say to me "I hope this is not going to be reported to Fargo" and "are you guys reporting to Fargo", etc...

Trying to hide your skill is the first foundation of cheating in pool, I stick anyone that is afraid of being ranked properly in the same level as people that hide fouls or lie about good hits, etc...
 
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mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is an issue with using Fargo, every time I have tried to do a tournament or league with Fargo, players ran away. You need honest players that want to play to their skill level to use Fargo. Find 10 of those in a city, I dare ya.

I have had people say to me "I hope this is not going to be reported to Fargo" and "are you guys reporting to Fargo", etc...

[...].

This is a common early response. I think you have to take a snapshot a little later, after ratings are more established and people are trusting them
 

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SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I see this thread still going.

Simply put the APA is the the death of real pool. A gigantic money grab for league ops and the APA corporation. Player payouts are pathetic, getting a couple hundred for travel to Vegas and a 5 inch trophy. Dumbed down game on dumbed down tables.
 
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