Kamui Clear

thubosky said:

Yea I under stand, just poking fun at the fact that there's glue all in between the layers, what would a little more hurt?

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How much more? Exactly? What are the differences in feel between a tip that has had a lot of glue wick up into the lower layers and one that hasn't. Do you know? Have you compared? The point is that they believe there is an inconsistency with the net feel and performance of the tip based on variability in gluing techniques. For the people who don't understand this or care, they have nothing to worry about. For those that do understand, great! Kamui is looking at the details and trying to make improvements.

Hard to see the issue...

KMRUNOUT

I like what Kamui has done with the new series of tips.
I have not tried a new Kamui clear as they are not yet available out here yet.
I have however done some of my own testing on a few tips and have found there to be a slight advantage with the polycarbonate tip pad versus no tip pad for a similar tip.
I have more to do in this area and some other tip types to try and see what the outcome for them is.
There will also be a reason for them having the plastic on both sides versus just the single side .

Roger Long said:

If it was actually a problem, all you would have to do is ask the installer to leave an extra layer(s) on the tip, rather than telling him, "cut it in half before shaping it" (I hear that all the time).

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What does cutting the tip down have to do with glue wicking through the tip, starving the bond between tip and ferrule?

You don't have to buy it, and you don't have to buy the tip either. It does seem that you just don't get it, period.

-roger

I think Roger gets it just fine.

If you don't understand the his statement re the cutting down the height of the tip, then it is possibly yourself that doesn't quite get it.

Not all repairmen are retards as you put it previously.

I don't stock Kamui products for my own personal reasons but could care less if anyone else likes their products.

Without having an explanation from Kamui re the use of a clear pad, all we were doing was offering some explanations of our own based on install experience with many different brands of tips and the use of carbon, fiber and phenolic pads.

One layer or less of leather at the bottom of a tip will be hard from allowing it to wick up a bit of Cyno. This hard barrier will prohibit or lessen
the chance of the tip wicking up whatever type of Cyno used for an install.

Many of the tips these days, Kamui, Ultra Skin for instance are made a little higher. Some like the height and others like the installer to cut the tip down by one or two layers to make them the same height of tip that they were previously used to playing with.
And at that height, it makes them feel that they are at the same point as being broken in as well.

Myself, along with other players can feel the difference in hit between the tall tips as opposed to a tip with a regular height.

If you have the ability to sense the difference in height, the lower the tip, the greater the chance of a player being able to feel the hard layer at the bottom of a tip whether it be from one layer of leather being hard from the Cyno or one hard layer from the tip pad.

So Roger mentions what one poster typed in that he couldn't feel the difference between the two.

And I agree, if there is no difference in feel, what is the purpose of the thick pad.

And, without an explanation from a Kamui Rep, your assumptions are as accurate as ours are.

Yourself having several tips that click is a sign that maybe you should change installers. Or at least, educate yourself enuff to be able to tell your installer on how you would prefer your tips installed as to avoid future clicking.

My tips don't click and if by chance one of my customers got one that did, his tip would be replaced immediately free of charge, no questions asked.

As a side note, know that other than being an instructor, Roger is also a dealer and well versed in repairing cues. So chances are, he does know what he is talking about.

WOW! I just read Roger's repair list pricing. I think I will send out my repairs to him.

Blue Hog ridr said:

If you don't understand the his statement re the cutting down the height of the tip, then it is possibly yourself that doesn't quite get it.

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It's possible, sure.

But staying on point, there are two problems being addressed by Kamui's clear tip pad: eliminating install variables (glue wick, leather-glue bond etc), and keeping every layer consistent (in case there is glue wicking into the bottom layer at install).

The first problem is IMO (and in my experience) the more significant one, and your comment about finding new repairmen proves my point re fool-proofing the install as far as tip prepping/glue wicking is concerned.

To the second problem: even if a player feels no difference in hit when the tip is full or halfway cut down, he/she could very well feel the difference once the tip is down to the final 1 or 2 layers. Many, many players prefer the tip that low, and there are pros who plays with tips that are shaped at half a layer. For many it's a visual thing as well, not wanting to play with a tall tip.

How did Roger's solution (just keep the tip taller) address this problem at all? And how is Kamui NOT addressing this problem by producing a tip with consistent layers throughout (for people who play down to the last 1 or 2 layers)?

And btw, if any of you think that neither of these issues are problems, I don't care that you don't care.

-roger

Any chance of getting one to try?

I had one put on last week. Trying it out tonight for the first time. Will report back.

I think some cue makers were given some or bought some at SBE. Ask your cue maker if he has some.

Does anyone know if they will still make the regular ones???

How do they glue the tip to the pad? Wouldn't the tip sop up that glue?

obsespool said:

How do they glue the tip to the pad? Wouldn't the tip sop up that glue?

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I'm not fully understanding it either. How does a plastic pad have anything to do with glue not getting on or in the tip

Just took a few pics of mine. The more I play with it, the more I like it.

Good points Roger. I wasn't posting in this thread to Piss anyone off, just to try and give a few explanations re installs that maybe some players don't get to see when they drop a cue off.

Lots of people tend to put a small dab of Cyno on the bottom of the tip. Then they push the tip against the ferrule and give it a small circular motion. You can see the glue squeeze out a bit between the bottom of the tip and sides of the ferrule. This would give the impression that the entire bottom of the tip and ferrule have been covered, which they have.

The excess glue is wiped from the ferrule face once the tip has adhered.

Even tho the entire tip has been covered with glue, it won't stop the tip from wicking up more glue.

The tip may not take up enuff glue to ever make it dangerously close to popping off on you but enuff that it has now created a void which will most likely cause the clicking sound that is very audible to you.

That particular tip may stay on for its entire life time but still drive you crazy every time you hit a ball with it.

A loose ferrule can also make a clicking sound.

Apparently Kamui stated that the Pad is attached to the bottom of the tip without glue.

I have very little knowledge of how tips are made beyond speculating that the methods and adhesives used to glue the leather layers to each other are different than the glues that we use to glue the tip to a ferrule.

Most likely a formulated epoxy that won't wick up into the layer that it is glued to. It has to be something very strong. If it were to wick up into another layer, obviously we would end up with a pretty hard tip.

I have had one brand of tips delaminate on me. Whether they were just an inferior tip, old or the adhesive used was inferior, I don't know. I do know that they went into the trash bin.

Blue Hog ridr said:

...
As a side note. I have had 3 tips pop on me. One was on one of my own shafts, one a customer and one a break tip which can cause grief anyway. Of the 2 tips that I didn't instal but popped and was able to put the original tip back on carefully for the customer, guess what brand both were. Thats right, both were a Kamui tip.

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buddha162 said:

Is it possible that the way they "treat" the kamui blacks (I assume it's soaked in some solution prior to curing) result in a leather surface that is more finicky to glue? ...

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I had 3 times also the problem that Kamui black tips were popping off. Maybe these were fakes, I am not a 100 % sure. But another thing is that nearly all kamuis I had or installed for others hold the chalk not as well as most other tips. So I think there MAY be also a reason caused by the impregnation or other processing parameters that makes it harder to get a goog bonding. This possible reason is the most senseful reason I can imagine in the moment why kamui makes the clear ones. For the purpose of a more secure gluing.

Fatboy said:

instead of putting a clear pad on every tip, why not put a clear pad on the shaft and when your retipping it, just cut off the old tip down to the pad? I have had pads for years and 10,12,15 tips beforeI changed out the pad. Seems to me thats the way to go, I dont buy this notion of tips sucking up glue one bit. I play with tips until the side is almost down to the ferrel I start them low @ 3/32" I aint ever never once seen a incident with glue or a tip getting funny rom what ever adhesive is used, I have had layered tips get hard as a rock from the glue holding them together migrating between the layers.

I like their chalk, and tips, and the girl in the clear tip ad posted above, but I call BS on the clear pad. looks cool, so install a clear pad and recycle(justput new tips on it again and again.

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While I agree that it may not be necessary to add a clear pad/barrier to the tip I have noticed when I install Kamuis that the leather does soak up glue. I had to start putting a layer of glue on the tip and letting it dry before sanding and installing it. Otherwise -> I would have bonding issues. With the preinstalled layer there should be no worry of getting a strong glue bond. Polycarbonate glues wonderfully.

Since I started pre gluing the tip I haven't had one come off.

The layer makes sense to me,

Dudley

Something irritates me a little bit. I installed by far more tiger emerald tips than kamui. I gues 5 times more emeralds. The emeralds soak up the cyano gel more than the kamuis, but I never had one emerald popped off!

The layer makes sense to me,

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How are you going to cut it? With a razor blade.

conetip said:

...
I have however done some of my own testing on a few tips and have found there to be a slight advantage with the polycarbonate tip pad versus no tip pad for a similar tip. ...

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Can you tell more about the advantages you found out?

Blue Hog ridr said:

How are you going to cut it? With a razor blade.

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I've used razor blades and it's ok but I prefer using a dead sharp carbide insert on the cross slide.

The polycarbonate pad will be easier to cut than leather.

Dudley

I will step in here..
We are not using a "liquid" to adhere the poly to the leather. Keep in mind as you wear down your tip... As the tip gets closer to the ferrule you will be encountering harder leather changing the performance of the tip.... Think about what we accomplished here. You have a longer consistent performing/lasting tip.

And Joe, and Steve welcomed the new Kamui Clear as it allows for less prep time.

raise1 said:

Kamui tips are good tips, except they glaze and get harder too quickly.

As for the clear pad to prevent the glue of getting into the leather, is Kamui saying that our fine cue repairmen in the US such as Joe Blackburn, Guido Orlandi, Steve Lomax and countless of others don't know how to properly install a tip -causing the tips to absorb the glue? And therefore Kamui has to do the clear pad? I mean, Kamui has to use some kind of glue between the clear pad and the tip for the tips to stay on, right?

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buddha162 said:

I managed to snag a Clear black medium at the expo, had Ryan (of RAT cue fame) install it on my new OB Classic and have shot with it for 3 days since. My impression is this: there is absolutely no difference between the original kamui black and the kamui black clear in terms of hit/hardness/etc.

Having said that, IMO the advantage of the clear pad is idiot-proofing the install. I'm sure many repairmen/cuemakers are aware of leather tips wicking up glue; some are not. Every now and then you might get a tip that wicks up more glue than usual. When a tip is not properly prepped, it can lead to glue failures...maybe not enough for the tip to pop off, but enough to cause a "clicking" due to a tiny gap between ferrule and tip.

As far as I can tell (with a sample size of 1), the clear pad addresses this problem, and since I had 3 different layered tips click on me in the recent past, I'm happy to see this innovation.

-roger

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I guess I am confused. As a leather worker I can understand the part about leather soaking up glue. But what I don't understand is the fact that since Kamui tips are layered how would the fresh glue affect anything other than the bottom layer? Or is it meant to say that repair people are so sloppy that they are getting glue all up the sides and it is flowing into each layer?

I mean I have done tips for years and when I am done with a tip then it looks factory fresh. I can understand the concept, I saw one of these installed but I guess I don't see the need.

I wonder then what the point of a ferrule is as well if you are going to put more distance between it and the leather with an acrylic pad?

Anyway, they do look kinda cool and weird installed. Definitely different and a way to distinguish Kamui tips from everything else. Always thinking those guys, always thinking!

CMD said:

Just took a few pics of mine. The more I play with it, the more I like it.

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That's cool looking. Now I want one. I get it now as well. Good idea to deliver tips with a glue barrier. That solves all possible problems with inconsistent wicking at the bottom.