SJM Slant on the 2016 Mosconi Cup

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
OK, this won’t be kind, but as the saying goes “you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.” I didn’t go to the Mosconi, but I saw every minute of every match.

In what ought to be viewed as the worst-ever performance by Team USA at the Mosconi, the pain was tough to bear. For those who might suggest that this was better than 2013, you are mistaken. Appleton, Souquet, Feijen, Immonen, and Boyes was a team consisting of four hall future of famers at the top of their games and the other had medaled that year in the World 9-ball Championships. That team’s play, which was good enough for an 11-2 win, was well above what we saw this year from Team Europe, and that Team might have beaten the 2016 Team USA 11-0. Congrats to Team Europe, but Team USA needs a major overhaul.

1. Same Old Same Old – USA Terrible at Singles

Only Rodney Morris delivered a point in singles, in which the US was pathetic, going 1-5. Inadequacy in defense and kicking were the US team’s biggest problem and America’s big breakers, SVB and Dechaine, didn’t break and run many racks.

2. Terrible at Doubles and Lost the Team Game, Too

We were 2-6 in team matches, 2-5 in doubles and 0-1 in the Team vs Team match, but only due to fluking Match 13, in which Bergman’s seemingly fatal miss was rescued by a fluked safety. Probably should have been 1-7.

3. Individual Members of Team USA

Skyler Woodward
After a respectable effort as Bergman’s partner on day one, Skyler’s play was pretty poor for the rest of the Mosconi. Still, his game is maturing and he looks like he’ll be a many-time member of Team USA. I’m bullish on Skyler and think he has a bright future at the Mosconi.

Justin Bergman
Bergman was solid most of the way, and was, by a mile, Team USA’s best player. To be fair, Justin does not break as well as some of the game’s top players and it threatens to hold him back from contention in the biggest events in pool. Still, Justin is the real deal, and he’s the only member of Team USA to whom onecan possibly say “well played.” Justin’s all around game should inspire other members and aspiring members of Team USA. Justin’s formula has been simple ---- he has become proficient in all the games, a dangerous opponent in all of pool’s major disciplines. He has a really nice blend of power and finesse. Two young players with a trajectory similar to that of Justin because of their all around skills are Skyler Woodward and, even more so, Billy Thorpe.

Shane Van Boening
Clearly the biggest disappointment on Team USA, Shane still can’t find his form in this event. He played in four of the first six matches, including the Team vs. Team match in which he lost two racks, and Team USA was 0-4 in those matches. His poor play turned this into an early rout, as we were down 5-1 by then. Shane is still an undisputed superstar and a future BCA Hall of Famer, but the Mosconi owns him and he’d likely be the first to admit it.

Mike Dechaine
Mike still can’t find his form at the Mosconi. He and Bergman were involved in what was surely the best match of the Mosconi, and he missed a two nine combo and another shot that cost Team USA a rack. Fueled by Bergman’s excellence, however, they got to double hill and Mike played an exquisite safe on the three and it looked like he’d redeemed himself. Appleton felt otherwise, kicking in the three and Ouschan followed with a superb four ball to earn the double hill win. Mike played respectably against Niels in singles, but ran into a man playing perfectly. Mike had no misses or tactical errors as Shane’s partner but Shane missed once and Mike scratched on the break once and those two errors sealed their fate. Fnally, Shaw beat Mike in a match in which Jayson came with a whole lot. Mike made some key errors at key moments and these shots added up to a poor Mosconi performance.

Rodney Morris
The one guy able to win at singles, Rodney got off to a good start, but his play fell off considerably afterward and he probably made as many bad errors as anyone on the team. Still, his singles win over Shaw was impressive.

4. Looking at the team as a whole

A. What Team USA Did Well

Don’t know Day 4 stats, but through Day 3, the US had 13 Break and Run racks to Europe’s 12.

B. What USA did Just Passably

I’d rate Team USA pattern play as passable, but inferior to that of Team Europe. Ball pocketing was just passable, well below that of Team Europe.

C. What Team USA Did Poorly

For the third straight year, that defense and kicking were pitiful, but this was the worst year of the three in this regard. Unlike Team Europe, the US rarely employed the two way shot. As I’ve noted in the past, it is impossible to win a Mosconi Cup playing this poorly in the moves game, and this is a big difference between Team USA and Team Europe. Poor defense and kicking ensure Europe many more good looks at the table than they deserve. The US didn’t pocket well at all and its speed control was pretty awful. Shot design/selection and shot execution were both terrible. European fundamentals seem a bit more solid than those of the American's, but I'm not a stroke mechanics guru and must leave more serious consideration of this matter to others.

5. The Coaching

Mark Wilson is a credit to American pool and a man of great quality and class. His commitment to the Mosconi is unwavering, his goals lofty. I have second thoughts about sharing this, but in each of his first two years as coach I offered to make a substantial contribution to the team (I’d have likely donated $2,500 each year) but he turned me down, saying that he wanted to pursue a more sustainable financial model for the event. I can’t tell you how much this impressed me. Mark has a long-term view of this event, an ambitious one at that.

All that said, he came up empty as a coach this year.

His comment that the goal was “not to suck” rubbed me and some other serious fans of American pool the wrong way. It may have been meant to echo Cub manager Joe Maddon's sentiment of a couple of months ago, but if so, the moment was wrong, for Team USA had lost, consecutively, the last six Mosconi Cups in which it did, all too often, suck, and every member of the 2016 Team USA had contributed at least twice to the losing streak. In contrast, the Cubs were a team that hadn't played in a world series in the lifetime of its manager or any of its players. In fact, the player who would become 2016 World Series MVP , Ben Zobrist, was a Cub this year, after winning with the Kansas City Royals in 2015. The Cubs wanted to make their first appearance in sixty eight years count. The Cubs, in fact, did suck in the first four games of the the World Series, falling 3-1 behind, but memorably won the next three to capture the championship. There's no evidence of any kind that setting a goal of "not sucking" instantly fires up a team.

He clearly failed to address the weaknesses of last year’s team, of which four players returned, as the weaknesses were exactly the same as last year. His comment in the post match interview that his team did everything asked of it was fairly shocking, but if so, he never asked them to address the weaknesses they displayed in 2015 and never asked them to play with more patience, the kind that Europe so often wins racks with.

All this aside, thanks to Mark Wilson for his hard work.

I think Mark’s return is improbable after losing all twelve daily sessions in his three year term as coach, but it will be OK with me if he returns, because he presents American pool with dignity time and time again. All five members of his team conducted themselves admirably in the arena of battle.

6. Sizing It Up for Next Year

American pool has hit bottom and it’s usually around now that we hear from the American fans that live in denial about the size of the gap between American and European pool. One day, when we are smart enough to own the size of that gap, we can start doing something about it. Bergman is a complete player, and Skyler seems to be evolving into one, but for the most part, the US players of the past three years move so poorly that they are completely dependent on their break. Our players need to learn how to beat Team Europe to the shot. Why is it that we know how to beat them all to the shot in one pocket but not in nine ball? Yes, it’s partly because we play the game more, but to me, it evidences that US players have the finesse skills to be good moves game players if they really work on it.

7. The Bottom Line

As the Greek philosopher Herodotus said, “the past is history,” so let's start fixing this tomorrow.
 
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drv4

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good write up l. I agree with most of what you wrote. Too bummed still to comment, need to decompress.

Side note: love the production of the event. Wish I could get some semi finals and finals of events like DCC or the US Open on TV. Love what all the streamers bring as far as amount of content, but that production value of the mosconi is awesome.
 

John Disque

Banned
Our big mistake was - SJM didn't qualify!

Damn!

what was Mark Wilson thinking?

Mark - SJM!!!! <=== Geez man! Why didn't you pick him.... or her... or whatever? That dude/chick knows EVERYTHING ABOUT POOL!!
 

John Disque

Banned
All 5 players should be mandated, by KING-TRUMP, to take daily lessons from SJM, or one of these other "AZ-know it alls" for 1 full year!

THEN we'll be ready!

BOOM!
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
"To thine own self be true"

WHEW! Unfortunately I agree with most of what you wrote.

One pocket IS all about knowledge and it is easier to hid the cue ball behind a big stack of balls than it is to hide it behind a few balls like in 9 ball. The vast majority of Europeans seldom play one pocket. While not playing the game on a regular basis is a small excuse for the disparity that exists in that one discipline. With the way that Team Europe played safeties as compared to Team USA, I am afraid that Europe, given just a little time to embrace one pocket, would pass up the U.S. in that discipline as well. It's not easy for me to acknowledge that Europe has better technique but it's there for anyone to see.

We can wail about the Chinese table, the European fans, the European players, USA Team Captain, luck and any other excuse you can find, it is as plain as the nose on your face that in this type of format, the USA is an underdog by a long shot. You just don't get beat 7 times in a row and continue to find excuse after excuse.

My hope is that our American players will return to U.S. soil and decide that they will acknowledge their weaknesses in this format and work to make them their strengths.

A professional sports psychologist is needed to help the players fade those loud and boisterous fans of Europe and possibly some training under those conditions. Those European fans remind me of the rabid Saints fans & ferocious LSU fans down here in Louisiana.

JoeyA
 

Kris_b1104

House Pro in my own home.
Silver Member
OK, this won’t be kind, but as the saying goes “you’ve gotta be cruel to be kind.” I didn’t go to the Mosconi, but I saw every minute of every match.

In what ought to be viewed as the worst-ever performance by Team USA at the Mosconi, the pain was tough to bear. For those who might suggest that this was better than 2013, you are mistaken. Appleton, Souquet, Feijen, Immonen, and Boyes was a team consisting of four hall future of famers at the top of their games and the other had medaled that year in the World 9-ball Championships. That team’s play, which was good enough for an 11-2 win, was well above what we saw this year from Team Europe, and that Team might have been the 2016 Team USA 11-0. Congrats to Team Europe, but Team USA needs a major overhaul.

1. Same Old Same Old – USA Terrible at Singles

Only Rodney Morris delivered a point in singles, in which the US was pathetic, going 1-5. Inadequacy in defense and kicking were the US team’s biggest problem and America’s big breakers, SVB and Dechaine, didn’t break and run many racks.

2. Terrible at Doubles, Too

We were 2-6 in doubles, but only due to fluking Match 13, in which Bergman’s seemingly fatal miss was rescued by a fluked safety. Probably should have been 1-7.

3. Individual Members of Team USA

Skyler Woodward
After a respectable effort as Bergman’s partner on day one, Skyler’s play was pretty poor for the rest of the Mosconi. Still, his game is maturing and he looks like he’ll be a many-time member of Team USA. I’m bullish on Skyler and think he has a bright future at the Mosconi.

Justin Bergman
Bergman was solid most of the way, and was, by a mile, Team USA’s best player. To be fair, Justin does not break as well as some of the game’s top players and it threatens to hold him back from contention in the biggest events in pool. Still, Justin is the real deal, and he’s the only member of Team USA to whom onecan possibly say “well played.” Justin’s all around game should inspire other members and aspiring members of Team USA. Justin’s formula has been simple ---- he has become proficient in all the games, a dangerous opponent in all of pool’s major disciplines. He has a really nice blend of power and finesse. Two young players with a trajectory similar to that of Justin because of their all around skills are Skyler Woodward and, even more so, Billy Thorpe.

Shane Van Boening
Clearly the biggest disappointment on Team USA, Shane still can’t find his form in this event. He played in four of the first six matches, including the Team vs. Team match in which he lost two racks, and Team USA was 0-4 in those matches. His poor play turned this into an early rout, as we were down 5-1 by then. Shane is still an undisputed superstar and a future BCA Hall of Famer, but the Mosconi owns him and he’d likely be the first to admit it.

Mike Dechaine
Mike still can’t find his form at the Mosconi. He and Bergman were involved in what was surely the best match of the Mosconi, and he missed a two nine combo and another shot that cost Team USA a rack. Fueled by Bergman’s excellence, however, they got to double hill and Mike played an exquisite safe on the three and it looked like he’d redeemed himself. Appleton felt otherwise, kicking in the three and Ouschan followed with a superb four ball to earn the double hill win. Mike played respectably against Niels in singles, but ran into a man playing perfectly. Mike had no misses or tactical errors as Shane’s partner but Shane missed once and Mike scratched on the break once and those two errors sealed their fate. Fnally, Shaw beat Mike in a match in which Jayson came with a whole lot. Mike made some key errors at key moments and these shots added up to a poor Mosconi performance.

Rodney Morris
The one guy able to win at singles, Rodney got off to a good start, but his play fell off considerably afterward and he probably made as many bad errors as anyone on the team. Still, his singles win over Shaw was impressive.

4. Looking at the team as a whole

A. What Team USA Did Well

Don’t know Day 4 stats, but through Day 3, the US had 13 Break and Run racks to Europe’s 12.

B. What USA did Just Passably

I’d rate Team USA pattern play as passable, but inferior to that of Team Europe. Ball pocketing was just passable, well below that of Team Europe.

C. What Team USA Did Poorly

For the third straight year, that defense and kicking were pitiful, but this was the worst year of the three in this regard. Unlike Team Europe, the US rarely employed the two way shot. As I’ve noted in the past, it is impossible to win a Mosconi Cup playing this poorly in the moves game, and this is a big difference between Team USA and Team Europe. Poor defense and kicking ensure Europe many more good looks at the table than they deserve. The US didn’t pocket well at all and its speed control was pretty awful. Shot design/selection and shot execution were both terrible. European fundamentals seem a bit more solid than those of the American's, but I'm not a stroke mechanics guru and must leave more serious consideration of this matter to others.

5. The Coaching

Mark Wilson is a credit to American pool and a man of great quality and class. His commitment to the Mosconi is unwavering, his goals lofty. I have second thoughts about sharing this, but in each of his first two years as coach I offered to make a substantial contribution to the team (I’d have likely donated $2,500 each year) but he turned me down, saying that he wanted to pursue a more sustainable financial model for the event. I can’t tell you how much this impressed me. Mark has a long-term view of this event, an ambitious one at that.

All that said, he came up empty as a coach this year. His comment before day two that the goal was “not to suck” rubbed me and every serious fan of American pool the wrong way. It may well have demoralized his team, too, but we’ll never know. He clearly failed to address the weaknesses of last year’s team, of which four players returned, as the weaknesses were exactly the same as last year. His comment in the post match interview that his team did everything asked of it was fairly shocking, but if so, he never asked them to address the weaknesses they displayed in 2015 and never asked them to play with more patience, the kind that Europe so often wins racks with.

All this aside, thanks to Mark Wilson for his hard work.

I think Mark’s return is improbable after losing all twelve daily sessions in his three year term as coach, but it will be OK with me if he returns, because he presents American pool with dignity time and time again.

6. Sizing It Up for Next Year

American pool has hit bottom and it’s usually around now that we hear from the American fans that live in denial about the size of the gap between American and European pool. One day, when we are smart enough to own the size of that gap, we can start doing something about it. Bergman is a complete player, and Skyler seems to be evolving into one, but for the most part, the US players of the past three years move so poorly that they are completely dependent on their break. Our players need to learn how to beat Team Europe to the shot. Why is it that we know how to beat them all to the shot in one pocket but not in nine ball? Yes, it’s partly because we play the game more, but to me, it evidences that US players have the finesse skills to be good moves game players if they really work on it.

7. The Bottom Line

As the Greek philosopher Herodotus said, “the past is history,” so let's start fixing this tomorrow.

Great write up and excellent points.

Stu, would you ever consider being Captain? I think you would make a great one.

That is, after Jay Helfert gets his shot.
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All 5 players should be mandated, by KING-TRUMP, to take daily lessons from SJM, or one of these other "AZ-know it alls" for 1 full year!

THEN we'll be ready!

BOOM!

You should be mandated to go back on your Thorazine and please have that electro-shock treatment for God sake!!
 
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crabbcatjohn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Doubles

Personally i hate the way they play doubles. Its ridiculous asking the other player "where you want it" every shot like two B players would. The only players i saw it work for was Appleton telling Gray where to put it every shot. But you didn't see him asking Gray where he "wanted" it did you. At this level, just let the guy friggin shoot and get the shape he normally would. As soon as you second guess a guys shot he won't be comfortably confident to correctly pull off the shot with shape. I can't tell you how many times its cost us easy position and a poor safe. I can see discussing a difficult saftey or shot if he asks you, but unless the guy asks you he really doesn't need you to tell him how to play safe or position at this level. Rodney has to be the worst doubles partner ever. JMO
 

yelvis111

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good write up. I always enjoy your assessments of the events.

One thing though, the "try not to suck" thing was co-opted from Joe Maddon, the manager of the Cubs, who won the World Series after a 108 year drought. It was not an "undercover" thing, either.

If that quote demoralized you, then you really need pay more attention to the rest of the sports world.

Pax,

Taek
 

MCP

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Herodotus Must be an old Brooklyn Doger fan.

"wait till next year"

McP
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Good write up. I always enjoy your assessments of the events.

One thing though, the "try not to suck" thing was co-opted from Joe Maddon, the manager of the Cubs, who won the World Series after a 108 year drought. It was not an "undercover" thing, either.

If that quote demoralized you, then you really need pay more attention to the rest of the sports world.

Pax,

Taek

Unfortunately, the timing was wrong, because this comment, offered just before day two play began, came in the wake of day one, in which the US team did suck. The context did not seem broad or historical, as you suggest, but seemed to lament a day one performance that the players from Team USA were surely trying to put behind them as the session began.

Yes, it really rubbed me the wrong way.

PS I've since learned that this comment was on day one and fixed my post accordingly. Still, I recall feeling that the comment was poorly judged.
 
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dkleather

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good write up. I always enjoy your assessments of the events.

One thing though, the "try not to suck" thing was co-opted from Joe Maddon, the manager of the Cubs, who won the World Series after a 108 year drought. It was not an "undercover" thing, either.

If that quote demoralized you, then you really need pay more attention to the rest of the sports world.

Pax,

Taek

Of the available instructional or motivational quotes it is among there with the worst possible choices.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Personally i hate the way they play doubles. Its ridiculous asking the other player "where you want it" every shot like two B players would. The only players i saw it work for was Appleton telling Gray where to put it every shot. But you didn't see him asking Gray where he "wanted" it did you. At this level, just let the guy friggin shoot and get the shape he normally would. As soon as you second guess a guys shot he won't be comfortably confident to correctly pull off the shot with shape. I can't tell you how many times its cost us easy position and a poor safe. I can see discussing a difficult saftey or shot if he asks you, but unless the guy asks you he really doesn't need you to tell him how to play safe or position at this level. Rodney has to be the worst doubles partner ever. JMO

This post is well judged. Players at this level rarely need advice on pattern play, and on the rare occasion that a tricky shot/pattern arises, discussion is fine.

If you get the shape you have in mind, odds are partner is going to like it.

As you note, tricky tactical situations may sometimes merit discussion.
 

watchez

What time is it?
Silver Member
Unfortunately, the timing was wrong, because this comment, offered just before day two play began, came in the wake of day one, in which the US team did suck. The context did not seem broad or historical, as you suggest, but seemed to lament a day one performance that the players from Team USA were surely trying to put behind them as the session began.

Yes, it really rubbed me the wrong way.

I thought Mark said it on Day one before the matches started - but I am getting old and can't remember things. I would have to go back and watch the videos posted. Mark is a big baseball fan so he was trying to key off that as that mentality, and ability of the Cub players to use it to keep themselves loose through out the year.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was going to watch the replays on Youtube anyway but SJM's assessment only makes me want to more so.

I really enjoy the comments made about being first to the shot. This is something I think about in my own game but can't say I was paying close attention to it as I was watching the match. I'm curious of I find a similar conclusion.


Regarding the sarcasm directed at SJM, please note *he* is well respected in the pool community, both online and in person. He not only contributes a great deal of his time to players of all levels, he also is known for contributing to added funds for tournaments. That's not to mention, he's also a nice person. Please consider this before being so disrespectful.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I was going to watch the replays on Youtube anyway but SJM's assessment only makes me want to more so.

I really enjoy the comments made about being first to the shot. This is something I think about in my own game but can't say I was paying close attention to it as I was watching the match. I'm curious of I find a similar conclusion.


Regarding the sarcasm directed at SJM, please note *he* is well respected in the pool community, both online and in person. He not only contributes a great deal of his time to players of all levels, he also is known for contributing to added funds for tournaments. That's not to mention, he's also a nice person. Please consider this before being so disrespectful.

Your kind words are appreciated, Jude. As you'll see, break and runs were about even. The problem was the racks in which both team got to shoot. Such racks often come down to decision making skills, and our decisions just weren't good enough. That said, I'll look forward to your assessment of the matches once you've reviewed them.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I thought Mark said it on Day one before the matches started ...

You are correct. It was the first thing he said in the first interview on Day 1. I cringed. I'd guess that the enormous majority of people listening to that had no knowledge of the linkage with the Cubs. I didn't remember that either at the time, and just thought he was failing with an attempt to start the interview with humor. He did say some good things a couple of sentences later, however.


[Stu -- 2-5 in doubles]
 

john coloccia

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This post is well judged. Players at this level rarely need advice on pattern play, and on the rare occasion that a tricky shot/pattern arises, discussion is fine.

If you get the shape you have in mind, odds are partner is going to like it.

As you note, tricky tactical situations may sometimes merit discussion.

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I think it mostly came up in the context of one team member sizing up the next shot while the current shooter was sizing up the current shot and working as a team not to burn up time on the clock, especially when they were on opposite sides of the table. I thought it was actually pretty good team work.
 
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