There has been a serious breach of the contract against the WPA

justnum

justnum

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the info is based off what someone says was on Appletons face book

participation is allowed you are right but the punishment for participation that is unclear.

Because of this, the WPA respectfully asks players not to support such an event in the best long-term interests of the sport. Penalties will be applied to players who do participate as it against the rules of the WPA. It has been decided by the WPA that any player who does participate will lose all of their WPA ranking points and will not be permitted to participate in the next WPA Ranking event (the WPA Players Championship).
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AzHousePro said:
I've gone back three times now to reread the WPA release. Where does it say that player's can't play in the CBSA event? It just says that the event is not a World Championship.

One thing to keep in mind is that while a World Championship and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee in the States, a World Championship means something to the European and Asian governing bodies. I don't know if they still give bonus money to their players that win a World Championship, but it has happened in the past. Having won a World Championship is a much bigger honor over there than it is over here.

The issue with Dragon Promotions was that there is an "added money" threshold that must be met for an event to be sanctioned as a World Championship. Dragon was not reaching that threshold, but was sanctioned by the WPA because there really weren't any other 14.1 events that could possibly be called a World Championship. Dragon then attempted to lower their added money for later events and the WPA finally put their foot down. Like Matt said, you can't have a World Championship with small added money, no qualifiers and no oversight by any governing body.

It was said for a while that the Dragon event was thought of as a World Championship by some players, since it was still the biggest 14.1 event of the year. I have said in the podcast though, that the American 14.1 Championship should be considered the World Championship based on that logic now.

As a side note on the players thinking of the 14.1 event as a World Championship. A couple of those events were won by Thorsten and he was interviewed for a European podcast a couple of years ago where the host referred to those events as World Championships. Thorsten quickly corrected him and said they were not World Championships.

In retrospect, we have American players who are introduced at major events as having won the World All Around Championship. There is no World All Around Championship.
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justnum

justnum

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pool players punished for playing pool sounds like a losers deal. Are pro pool players losers?

https://poolmag.com/letter-to-players-from-wpa-about-cbsa-event/

Letter to Players from WPA about CBSA Event
Dear N. American Pool Players, Please see the message below addressed “Dear Players.” The CBSA has announced it will hold a world pool championship in March in the city of Yushan. They refuse to have the event sanctioned by the WPA, yet still feel justified they can conduct a world pool championship and it will be deemed as “Official.” Of course we all know that this is not correct, nobody can organize any sporting event and declare it an “Official” world championship unless it has been endorsed or sanctioned by that sport’s world governing body. BCA ________________________________________________________________________________________ Dear Players
China (CBSA) has recently announced it intends to run the Chinese Pool World Championship in Yushan, 15-21 March 2019.
The contract between WPA and CBSA for this event has been terminated for breach of contract and therefore the event is no longer sanctioned. This means, as an international event, it cannot be considered as a legitimate world championship and has no credibility as such. Because of this, the WPA respectfully asks players not to support such an event in the best long-term interests of the sport. Penalties will be applied to players who do participate as it against the rules of the WPA. It has been decided by the WPA that any player who does participate will lose all of their WPA ranking points and will not be permitted to participate in the next WPA Ranking event (the WPA Players Championship).
In addition, there may also be other penalties applied, including fines, imposed by the local, national and/or continental federations against participating players. Any offending player will have no ranking points to their credit for the start of 2019, and will not be considered for any wildcard nominations, meaning the only way into a ranking event tournament will be through Stage 1, the qualifying system.Thanks for your attention and support.RegardsGre LeendersWPA General Secretary
For up-to-date information on player invites, current news about WPA tournaments, or latest pro-player
 
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azhousepro

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OK, I see it in that letter.

The WPA is in a tough spot. What else do they do when someone holds a tourney and calls it a World Championship? I realize the Chinese event had a ton of prize money and the top players in the world, but it sets a dangerous precedent. If you let them do whatever they want, they are going to do whatever they want.

The timing worked out that the next sanctioned WPA event was the one where they were adding $50,000 out of their pocket. They are simply saying that if players go along with the event in China calling itself a World Championship when the WPA has stated that it is not, then those players are not welcome to take advantage of the $50,000 that the WPA is adding to their event. Had the next sanctioned event been the US Open or World 10-Ball, then I think the WPA would have been hard pressed to say players couldn't play, but when it is their own event, I think they are well within their rights.

Yes, in the big picture, the situation sucks and players are playing for very little prize money in comparison to other sports. But if the players are ever going to have this game viewed with respect, they are going to have to treat the game with respect themselves.

Just my opinion, of course. And my opinion comes with the understanding that I usually side with the WPA on things like this. I think they could be doing a LOT more for the sport, but they are the organization that sanctions events until the industry supports a different one.

Mike
 
MattPoland

MattPoland

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justnum said:
Thanks for posting, your info is amazing.



ok that makes sense about the name,



then why does banning players for participating make sense?
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They don’t penalize players for participating in unsanctioned events. They let that happen. If I recall correctly, Derby City Classic is not a sanctioned event. They are fairly permissive.

I think they draw the line at any event that claims for be an official championship. That’s their primary purpose. To run afoul of that is to compete with them. And that’s when they say you’re either part of our organization or you are not.

It’s a hard line. And it’s controversial. Especially if it means strong arming players into not competing in a massively lucrative event. But that’s what WPA is most worried about. They could lose recognition by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) if they cannot assert de facto authority as the international governing body for billiards. Deep pocketed promoters ignoring them is the primary threat to their status. Good thing Matchroom supports them. They could easily be the force to undermine them if the relationship wasn’t so cooperative.

Major League Baseball is an interesting example. People care more about the outcome of the World Series more than the do the U-15 World Cup. Enough so that you can see top MLB talent not interested in even bothering to compete in the “real world championship”. Fortunate for baseball, it’s already recognized internationally as a sport and stuff like that slides. Billiards doesn’t have that advantage.

WPA is probably worried that the Chinese could create their own lucrative bubble that top talent is more interested in competing in rather than the “real world championship”. So, WPA is a bit sensitive on the topic.

That said, I’m sure I’m speculating quite a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
justnum

justnum

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WPA being jerks about technical requirements at least for the 14.1 event. ( i agree with AZpro)

As for the Chinese thing, maybe they should have another event designation for experimental or emerging situations.

WPA likes to throw the rulebook, that lowers players incomes from losing prize money and participation. WPA can't adjust to non standard situations.

COVID is bad and income for 2020 was destroyed, they should be understanding of world events, but WPA is a closed door group.

Only people allowed to criticize would be non pro players.

Thanks Matt and AZ.
 
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iusedtoberich

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I have 3 comments I suppose:

1) Why did op bring this up 1.5 years later?
2) I’m personally on the side of never using the “World” title unless WPA sanctioned. And anytime this comes up, we each keep to our own opinions generally on the topic. But, the opinion does not seem consistent to me when applied to the DCC. For that event, people, including the promoters, call it “World All Around Championship”, and “World Bank Pool Championship”. Maybe because everyone likes Greg he gets a pass? But since few like Charlie or China they don’t get a pass?
 
justnum

justnum

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iusedtoberich said:
I have 3 comments I suppose:

1) Why did op bring this up 1.5 years later?
2) I’m personally on the side of never using the “World” title unless WPA sanctioned. And anytime this comes up, we each keep to our own opinions generally on the topic. But, the opinion does not seem consistent to me when applied to the DCC. For that event, people, including the promoters, call it “World All Around Championship”, and “World Bank Pool Championship”. Maybe because everyone likes Greg he gets a pass? But since few like Charlie or China they don’t get a pass?
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I have to learned not to post until after events have died down, in the past it didn't work out for me on the forum.
 
Bob Jewett

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iusedtoberich said:
... But, the opinion does not seem consistent to me when applied to the DCC. For that event, people, including the promoters, call it “World All Around Championship”, and “World Bank Pool Championship”. Maybe because everyone likes Greg he gets a pass? But since few like Charlie or China they don’t get a pass?
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Is the DCC bank pool really promoted as a world championship? Does it say that anywhere?

The WPA has recognized the DCC 9 ball tournament as a ranking event in the past. A major reason to have your event sanctioned is to get it protection on the calendar.
 
justnum

justnum

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Bob Jewett said:
Is the DCC bank pool really promoted as a world championship? Does it say that anywhere?

The WPA has recognized the DCC 9 ball tournament as a ranking event in the past. A major reason to have your event sanctioned is to get it protection on the calendar.
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Bob with the logic point, scheduling has priority.
Green if I could

still not clear on the punishment for players.
 
Bob Jewett

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justnum said:
... still not clear on the punishment for players.
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In general a sanction fee costs the promoter something. In theory, the sanctioning body provides things in return, such as calendar protection, recognition as a sanctioned event (which can mean direct support for some top players), and possibly access to sponsors. In some cases a sanction also means that the top players are more or less guaranteed to show up. That's important to promoters and is definitely worth something.

If players are completely free to go to any tournament that's calling itself a World Championship, that destroys the value of a sanction -- it destroys the "brand". We saw that with the events that Dragon Promotions was advertising as "World Championships" that were not. Among other problems, promoters were seeing that and asking why they had to add $100,000 for a WC.

Here is some info from the WPA about sanctioning: https://wpapool.com/tournament-sanctioning/
 
justnum

justnum

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My thinking was from the players side.

Ok some champsionships players know they wont place.

Why does participating in an alternative event penalize them on the from sanctioned events?

Players know they cant all win one event, more events helps spread the group income. WPA refuses to offer compromising terms or negotiations, buy why? Instead of WC offer, World Events not World Champs

create categories so people can start negotiating and deciding what works for them.

Bob Jewett said:
In general a sanction fee costs the promoter something. In theory, the sanctioning body provides things in return, such as calendar protection, recognition as a sanctioned event (which can mean direct support for some top players), and possibly access to sponsors. In some cases a sanction also means that the top players are more or less guaranteed to show up. That's important to promoters and is definitely worth something.

If players are completely free to go to any tournament that's calling itself a World Championship, that destroys the value of a sanction -- it destroys the "brand". We saw that with the events that Dragon Promotions was advertising as "World Championships" that were not. Among other problems, promoters were seeing that and asking why they had to add $100,000 for a WC.

Here is some info from the WPA about sanctioning: https://wpapool.com/tournament-sanctioning/
Click to expand...
 
Jimmorrison

Jimmorrison

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Complaining about the WPA, is one way to look at it. Why the CSBA added "World", is another way to look at it.
 
justnum

justnum

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Jimmorrison said:
Complaining about the WPA, is one way to look at it. Why the CSBA added "World", is another way to look at it.
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can middle ground be reached?

everyone has non starters but what is a starting point for discussion?


penalty for playing in alternative event on player, why have one? you forced a stacked field of names they are guaranteed losing spots.

that issue interests me most
 
S

Swighey

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goettlicher said:
YES! If you want to call your event a "World Championship" the WPA must sanction it.

randyg
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The WPA doesn't even have a World Championship for 8 ball. The last one was in 2012. A bit of stretch to think of a Chinese 8 Ball World Championship played on a
"Chinese" pool table as a rival to a non-existent event "played" (not played) on an "American" pool table

There are at least three other World Championships for "8 ball pool", played on "British" tables. The WPA has no issue with them.
 
S

Swighey

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MattPoland said:
It’s all seems fairly straight forward to me. If pool wants to be in the Olympic Games or at least stay eligible for the World Games, it needs to have a worldwide governing body. The WPA is that, born out of that intention and mostly supported by the industry internationally
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The umbrella organisation for cue sports, the WCBS https://www.wcbs.sport/ is the body responsible for trying to have pool, carom and amateur snooker included in the Olympic games.
The WPA is a member and is responsible for sanctioning pool tournaments played on 9 (or 8) ft "American" tables according to a standardized ruleset. The existence of Chinese, or British pool will have no impact on attempts by the WCBS to get billiard sports into the Olympic games.

Regarding the Olympics, "Rugby Sevens" has had players from at least three different codes of football (rugby union, rugby league and American football) playing in it. World Rugby (which governs the sport of rugby union) has never had an issue with this. Maybe they are on to something....

Also, the WPA has had no issue in the past with snooker players playing in the Mosconi Cup as it was good for promoting 9 Ball.
 
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justnum

justnum

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Swighey said:
The WPA doesn't even have a World Championship for 8 ball. The last one was in 2012. A bit of stretch to think of a Chinese 8 Ball World Championship played on a
"Chinese" pool table as a rival to a non-existent event "played" (not played) on an "American" pool table

There are at least three other World Championships for "8 ball pool", played on "British" tables. The WPA has no issue with them.
Click to expand...

If anyone responds and I hope it is worthy of that post. that post is worth a lot.
 
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