The crouching stance

JC · May 31, 2019

For all of my life my stance has been a crouch. Slightly bent front and back legs.

I have taken some instruction from 3 highly regarded instructors in my life and none of them told me to change it. They said if it was comfortable then it's ok.

Finally at age 60 my game has declined in a frustrating way. Stamina especially. So I decided to learn a straight back leg stance. I have always had tight hamstrings and believed that I couldn't do it but I was wrong. And those instructors were wrong not to change me many years ago.

After only a couple of weeks my new stance is getting comfortable and my stroke consistency is improved almost unbelievably. I actually can't believe how I'm now drilling long shots center pocket. Having that back leg locked removes all the variables from the stroke. I was getting so bad I was questioning whether it was a perception issue. That I wasn't aiming at the right spot. No that wasn't it, I simply was not delivering the cue ball where I wanted to and now I am. It's like my entire body is locked in to the shot line now and can't move from it.

If you are crouching my advice is to stop and learn a better stance. If you are instructing my advice is don't let your students crouch. It's really that bad. I wish someone would have insisted to me many years ago to change and told me why it was this important.

ChrisinNC · May 31, 2019

JC said:
For all of my life my stance has been a crouch. Slightly bent front and back legs.

I have taken some instruction from 3 highly regarded instructors in my life and none of them told me to change it. They said if it was comfortable then it's ok.

Finally at age 60 my game has declined in a frustrating way. Stamina especially. So I decided to learn a straight back leg stance. I have always had tight hamstrings and believed that I couldn't do it but I was wrong. And those instructors were wrong not to change me many years ago.

After only a couple of weeks my new stance is getting comfortable and my stroke consistency is improved almost unbelievably. I actually can't believe how I'm now drilling long shots center pocket. Having that back leg locked removes all the variables from the stroke. I was getting so bad I was questioning whether it was a perception issue. That I wasn't aiming at the right spot. No that wasn't it, I simply was not delivering the cue ball where I wanted to and now I am. It's like my entire body is locked in to the shot line now and can't move from it.

If you are crouching my advice is to stop and learn a better stance. If you are instructing my advice is don't let your students crouch. It's really that bad. I wish someone would have insisted to me many years ago to change and told me why it was this important.

JC

I don't know who those instructors may have been, but any qualified instructor would have instantly noticed the crouch in your stance and would have tried to stress to you the importance of attempting to change it immediately.

Michael Andros · May 31, 2019

JC said:
For all of my life my stance has been a crouch. Slightly bent front and back legs.

I have taken some instruction from 3 highly regarded instructors in my life and none of them told me to change it. They said if it was comfortable then it's ok.

Finally at age 60 my game has declined in a frustrating way. Stamina especially. So I decided to learn a straight back leg stance. I have always had tight hamstrings and believed that I couldn't do it but I was wrong. And those instructors were wrong not to change me many years ago.

After only a couple of weeks my new stance is getting comfortable and my stroke consistency is improved almost unbelievably. I actually can't believe how I'm now drilling long shots center pocket. Having that back leg locked removes all the variables from the stroke. I was getting so bad I was questioning whether it was a perception issue. That I wasn't aiming at the right spot. No that wasn't it, I simply was not delivering the cue ball where I wanted to and now I am. It's like my entire body is locked in to the shot line now and can't move from it.

If you are crouching my advice is to stop and learn a better stance. If you are instructing my advice is don't let your students crouch. It's really that bad. I wish someone would have insisted to me many years ago to change and told me why it was this important.

JC

JC - Odd how those things work. I was taught ( at 12, first few mnths in the pool room ) back leg locked ( and of course, in line with the shot ), front leg bent slightly. I played that way for years until I was @ 22 or so and then I changed to the "crouch", with both knees slightly ( accent on "slightly" ) bent. And have ever since. Now, that said, I played, subsequently, the best I ever played in the "crouch". But over the past 20 years ( 7 or 8 ESPECIALLY ), my back has gotten so bad I can't play more than 30 mins tops without having to sit for at least 20 mins. Aggravating to say the least. So, reading this from you, I think I'm gonna go back to back leg lock just to see if it makes any difference. We'll see... if so, THANKS! :grin-square:

evergruven · May 31, 2019

nice post, and congrats on the improvement-
whether it's establishing and maintaining a stable foundation so that your energy can be focused on delivering the cue,
or making small adjustments with your feet to be facing the shot comfortably, stance/footwork re: pool is definitely a topic worth considering.

"I simply was not delivering the cue ball where I wanted to and now I am. It's like my entire body is locked in to the shot line now and can't move from it."

sole power:thumbup:

JC · May 31, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
I don't know who those instructors may have been, but any qualified instructor would have instantly noticed the crouch in your stance and would have tried to stress to you the importance of attempting to change it immediately.

Earl has a crouching stance so I always figured it was probably ok, just a matter of preference. Never really gave it too much weight until I now know what I didn't.

My main reason for trying to change was fatigue during longer sessions I had no idea how badly it was affecting my ability to accurately deliver the cue ball adding those tension point variables.

pt109 · May 31, 2019

JC said:
Earl has a crouching stance so I always figured it was probably ok, just a matter of preference. Never really gave it too much weight until I now know what I didn't.

My main reason for trying to change was fatigue during longer sessions I had no idea how badly it was affecting my ability to accurately deliver the cue ball adding those tension point variables.

JC

There’s a bonus with that straight back leg, JC....not only does it allow you to get your
power from the floor, like a boxer throwing a knock-out punch....
...it tends to stop you crowding the cue ball....giving you a better perspective on the shot.

jimmyco · May 31, 2019

...and as an added bonus, it just may force that hurried cocktail waitress to take a detour around your table, rather than directly behind you as you shoot.

Tin Man · May 31, 2019

I'm glad to read this. I used a back leg locked stance and have noticed many pros that don't including SVB and Earl. I was worried I was doing it wrong.

I also prefer a pool stance vs snooker stance. On some shots I set up more snooker like, square to the shot, but whenever I need power I move my front foot more forward rather than just off to the side. This helps me generate power and also stay back from the cue ball a bit more which can help me sighting. I don't try to adjust my stance based on shots, I just notice on soft or easy shots I am a little less stretched, on tougher and more power demanding shots I lengthen my feet out a bit more.

HawaiianEye · May 31, 2019

I try to keep my stance pretty much the same for most shots, if I can. Position playing and table layout sometimes makes that impossible to do, though.

Like Tinman, I prefer a "pool stance" to a "snooker stance". The snooker stance isn't what I grew up with and it just feels uncomfortable for me.

I don't think there is a "stance" that is "effective" for "everybody", since everyone isn't built the same.

Being on the shorter side, I prefer keeping the cue ball somewhere on the table where I can use my "normal" stance vs maybe an "easier" shot that I would have to be a "contortionist" to reach or have to use the bridge.

Being short, I don't think I use much of a "crouching" stance because it would put me too low on the table.

From what I've noticed, "taller" players seem to "crouch" more than shorter players.

Michael Andros · May 31, 2019

HawaiianEye said:
I try to keep my stance pretty much the same for most shots, if I can. Position playing and table layout sometimes makes that impossible to do, though.

Like Tinman, I prefer a "pool stance" to a "snooker stance". The snooker stance isn't what I grew up with and it just feels uncomfortable for me.

I don't think there is a "stance" that is "effective" for "everybody", since everyone isn't built the same.

Being on the shorter side, I prefer keeping the cue ball somewhere on the table where I can use my "normal" stance vs maybe an "easier" shot that I would have to be a "contortionist" to reach or have to use the bridge.

Being short, I don't think I use much of a "crouching" stance because it would put me too low on the table.

From what I've noticed, "taller" players seem to "crouch" more than shorter players.

For exactly that reason, H.E. Good point.

SmoothStroke · May 31, 2019

Yodels

Crouching or sitting in your stance is the worst position for a pool stance. It's nice if you want to dunk a basketball, just bend those knees and jump as high as you can. It does not matter how tall or short you are. ''QUOTE STEVE MIZERAK'' (get your feet under you properly, if you want to sit go take a poop.)

There are a few players that have had great success sitting down in their stance, just a few in the history of the world, since the beginning of time, they are freaks. The other 1000 or so greats have their feet under them properly. I think it's taking a toll on Earl, I have never seen him raise up as much as he does now.

Stance is very simple, find the best ratio of balance for your upper and lower body that feels the most comfortable, adjust a little forward , a little back, until you find it. ROCKEM AND LOCKEM. Get the feet just right, sometimes it's an adjustment of 1/4 inch, a little left, right, in, out.

Now just add the most natural part of our body movements, your Ape Index and Body Gait and put it all together. You will feel like a waterfall cascading down a mountain flowing ever so naturally. Your stroke will flow more freely and you can teach Ballet classes you will feel so comfortable.

The few instructors you went to should give you a refund with interest.

JC · May 31, 2019

SmoothStroke said:
Crouching or sitting in your stance is the worst position for a pool stance. It's nice if you want to dunk a basketball, just bend those knees and jump as high as you can. It does not matter how tall or short you are. ''QUOTE STEVE MIZERAK'' (get your feet under you properly, if you want to sit go take a poop.)

There are a few players that have had great success sitting down in their stance, just a few in the history of the world, since the beginning of time, they are freaks. The other 1000 or so greats have their feet under them properly. I think it's taking a toll on Earl, I have never seen him raise up as much as he does now.

Stance is very simple, find the best ratio of balance for your upper and lower body that feels the most comfortable, adjust a little forward , a little back, until you find it. ROCKEM AND LOCKEM. Get the feet just right, sometimes it's an adjustment of 1/4 inch, a little left, right, in, out.

Now just add the most natural part of our body movements, your Ape Index and Body Gait and put it all together. You will feel like a waterfall cascading down a mountain flowing ever so naturally. Your stroke will flow more freely and you can teach Ballet classes you will feel so comfortable.

The few instructors you went to should give you a refund with interest.

The instructors taught me many things that improved my game. No one ever told me that changing my stance was mandatory before we continue and if you don't want to do it GTFO because I can't help you.

Knowing what I have recently learned it really seems that simple. You are correct in some ways, I came to these professional instructors with a wide open wallet and mind to have my problems diagnosed and left each one with a stance that continued to hold back my entire game. And now I'm old when I finally figured it out on my own. It's all good but I wrote my story in this thread to maybe help others who aren't on the decline in their years remaining to play. And maybe even help some instructors who may stumble upon it.

AtLarge · May 31, 2019

Some years ago I asked Ray Martin whether he would now (as of that time) want to change anything in his book. His answer was that he would no longer present what is a "proper" stance in the same way. He had come to the belief that it should be more open to personal variation.

JC · May 31, 2019

AtLarge said:
Some years ago I asked Ray Martin whether he would now (as of that time) want to change anything in his book. His answer was that he would no longer present what is a "proper" stance in the same way. He had come to the belief that it should be more open to personal variation.

I agree with this to some extent but crouching should not be a tolerable personal variation. I'm both excited to now understand this and deeply disappointed that it took me almost 50 years to do so.

No one to blame but myself. I got Willie Mosconi's red book when I was 12 years old and still have it. Willie done showed me how to stand in the first chapter and I ignored him.

Bob Jewett · May 31, 2019

AtLarge said:
Some years ago I asked Ray Martin whether he would now (as of that time) want to change anything in his book. His answer was that he would no longer present what is a "proper" stance in the same way. He had come to the belief that it should be more open to personal variation.

This may have been prompted by the fact that no top young pro player that I can recall uses the 1970s stance that Ray suggested:

but you do see some like this:

Here is the recommended stance about 1950 in some BCA material:

And here was the recommendation in 1839:

Bob Jewett · May 31, 2019

JC said:
For all of my life my stance has been a crouch. Slightly bent front and back legs.

I have taken some instruction from 3 highly regarded instructors in my life and none of them told me to change it. They said if it was comfortable then it's ok.

...

And it turned out to be uncomfortable, so in a sense they were right.

I never tell a student that they must put their foot like this or their hand like that because I say so. I point out the goals of a good stance and some suggestions for how to get there, like straightening the bridge arm and locking the back leg, and propose they try the tried-and-true way to see if it will work for them, but I don't demand that they do it The One True Way.

JC · May 31, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
And it turned out to be uncomfortable, so in a sense they were right.

I never tell a student that they must put their foot like this or their hand like that because I say so. I point out the goals of a good stance and some suggestions for how to get there, like straightening the bridge arm and locking the back leg, and propose they try the tried-and-true way to see if it will work for them, but I don't demand that they do it The One True Way.

Well if you see them crouching IMO you should make them change that before you move to the next thing. Or part ways friends.

Sorry no one put it to me like that a long time ago. I'm not talking about a foot or a hand I'm talking about the foundation everything else starts from.

I'm not trying to be like the annoying guy who just found the lord but.....Yes I finally met the pool lord after years and years in the wilderness. Now I'm going to tell the world. And those who already knew will just smile and nod.

I hope you consider what I'm saying and it's importance as an instructor privately at least. In reality you probably don't see that many crouchers so even with all your experience having never crouched yourself you may not realize how detrimental it is but I'm here to tell you!

Bob Jewett · Jun 1, 2019

JC said:
Well if you see them crouching IMO you should make them change that before you move to the next thing. Or part ways friends.

...

Some crouchers say that if they try to keep their back leg straight, their long-term back problem is aggravated. I don't recall any other kind of student who would not try using a straight back leg. I'll keep your experience in mind if I run into any healthy, adamant crouchers -- maybe it will convince them.

But I've had several students who had a particular stance issue who simply did not want to work on it. That choice is up to them. There are lots of other things to work on at pool beyond the stance.

ChrisinNC · Jun 1, 2019

The problem with the too low stance (2nd down from the top) as demonstrated I assume by Ray Martin, is that it is virtually impossible to stroke the cue back and through on an absolute level plane with the table as it is shown at the address, unless you raise your head on the backstroke and again on the follow through - which of course leads to problems.

JC · Jun 1, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
Some crouchers say that if they try to keep their back leg straight, their long-term back problem is aggravated. I don't recall any other kind of student who would not try using a straight back leg. I'll keep your experience in mind if I run into any healthy, adamant crouchers -- maybe it will convince them.

But I've had several students who had a particular stance issue who simply did not want to work on it. That choice is up to them. There are lots of other things to work on at pool beyond the stance.

I'm at the least flexible point in my life and found once I put my mind to it that yes, there is a comfortable stance with a locked back leg that doesn't aggravate my spine. I can barely tie my shoes now days. I always thought my hamstings and back were too tight to do it. Not sure how healthy your crouchers need to be. Lock that back leg on the shot line and move it fore and aft and the front forward, left, right until you feel that sweet spot. It's there.

Other's mileage may vary.

Thanks,

The crouching stance

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