drawing off the rail

evergruven · Nov 11, 2018

hey, this seems to be the forum where specific shots are discussed-

so if I can get low on the table, with a level cue, I can draw the ball ok. off the rail tho, I can't get as low (rail height is higher than my desired bridge height, I guess), and find it more difficult to draw-

questions:

is it simply just more difficult to draw off the rail than off the table?

good position or not, can anyone offer any advice about drawing off the rail?

cheers~

DrCue'sProtege · Nov 11, 2018

Are you talking about drawing off the rail on a shot like this? Drawing back off the 2B for position on the 3B? If so, have you practiced this shot 5,000 times?

r/DCP

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/5508b.png

Bob Jewett · Nov 11, 2018

evergruven said:
... is it simply just more difficult to draw off the rail than off the table? ...

Yes. The required elevation causes problems including making aiming more difficult, increasing the chance of swerve, and causing unwanted bouncing of the cue ball off the cloth.

To work on the shot I propose progressive practice using DCP's diagram above: start from a position that is fairly easy with the cue ball away from the cushion, and then move the cue ball closer to the cushion to make the shot harder. If you succeed on a shot, make the next shot a little harder. If you miss a shot, make the next shot a little easier.

Usually the distance moved in a progressive practice is the same regardless of the situation, but for shots near the rail like this, the change in distance when the cue ball is near the rail should be smaller -- but I think you'll catch on to that if you try the practice.

For a general overview of "progressive practice" as a concept and a set of simple drills, see this handout : http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/progpract.pdf

DrCue'sProtege · Nov 11, 2018

Bob,
In other words, you advocate practicing the shot with the CB in the various positions as shown in the diagram below, correct?

OP,
This is just my $.02. I'd practice making about five in a row and then move the CB back a couple of inches per the diagram below. Keep doing that until you either miss or don't get any draw. If you do miss or don't get any draw perhaps start over again. The first couple of CB positions shouldn't be that difficult but the last two positions get pretty hard.

If this is not the type of stuff you are looking for just let us know.

r/DCP

https://pad-v1.chalkysticks.com/7f4b3.png

Patrick Johnson · Nov 11, 2018

evergruven said:
is it simply just more difficult to draw off the rail than off the table?

Bob Jewett said:
Yes. The required elevation causes problems including making aiming more difficult, increasing the chance of swerve, and causing unwanted bouncing of the cue ball off the cloth.

It's also a different view of where to hit the ball for draw - remember that center ball tilts up with your cue.

pj
chgo

FranCrimi · Nov 11, 2018

If the cloth is worn, don't even bother. Then you'd be better off with a force follow shot --- cheat the pocket if you have to --- and back out for position.

evergruven · Nov 11, 2018

FranCrimi said:
If the cloth is worn, don't even bother. Then you'd be better off with a force follow shot --- cheat the pocket if you have to --- and back out for position.

I force follow better than I draw, so I appreciate this advice

thanks all for your replies..there's obviously no substitute for practical experience, but it's nice to be able to come here and get different perspectives to complement my own.

evergruven · Nov 11, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
remember that center ball tilts up with your cue.

pj
chgo

hi pat, I think I get the idea, but would you mind expounding on this?

oldschool1478 · Nov 12, 2018

evergruven said:
hi pat, I think I get the idea, but would you mind expounding on this?

You could think of the 'center' as the 'core' or center of mass.
So when jacked up, you are trying to hit the ball 'under/behind' the core of the ball, so that it rotates backward around that core.

Patrick may have a better explanation.

bbb · Nov 12, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
It's also a different view of where to hit the ball for draw - remember that center ball tilts up with your cue.

pj
chgo

evergruven said:
hi pat, I think I get the idea, but would you mind expounding on this?

i guess pat can answer best but i think he means this....
the line thru the center is tilted up
like when the cue would be jacked up
disregard the radius line
this was the first pic i could find for the concept

Patrick Johnson · Nov 12, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
It's also a different view of where to hit the ball for draw - remember that center ball tilts up with your cue.

evergruven said:
hi pat, I think I get the idea, but would you mind expounding on this?

bbb said:
i guess pat can answer best but i think he means this....
the line thru the center is tilted up
like when the cue would be jacked up

Yes, that's the idea. Here's another pic to illustrate.

The CB's "equator" is always parallel with the cue and never really horizontal - because the butt is almost always over the rail, as in the pic on the left. With the CB near the rail the butt is raised even more, so we have to visualize the equator - and judge the amount of draw we're applying - from that tilted perspective.

One way to help visualize that is to remember that the "equator" always passes through the 3D center of the CB (its "center of mass"), so the amount of draw we're applying is the amount we're aiming the stick below the 3D center.

The two pics below show about the same amount of draw (about maximum) being applied in both cases.

pj
chgo

View attachment 41490

bbb · Nov 12, 2018

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, that's the idea. Here's another pic to illustrate.

The CB's "equator" is always parallel with the cue and never really horizontal - because the butt is almost always over the rail, as in the pic on the left. With the CB near the rail the butt is raised even more, so we have to visualize the equator - and judge the amount of draw we're applying - from that tilted perspective.

One way to help visualize that is to remember that the "equator" always passes through the 3D center of the CB (its "center of mass"), so the amount of draw we're applying is the amount we're aiming the stick below the 3D center.

The two pics below show about the same amount of draw (about maximum) being applied in both cases.

pj
chgo

View attachment 41490

great explanation and great pics patrick

evergruven · Nov 13, 2018

bbb said:
great explanation and great pics patrick

agreed! thanks again all :smile:

gregcantrall · Nov 13, 2018

Cue ball last.

These shots require precision in striking the cue ball. That along with an elevated perspective of the shot makes cue ball last a good option.

evergruven · Nov 15, 2018

gregcantrall said:
These shots require precision in striking the cue ball. That along with an elevated perspective of the shot makes cue ball last a good option.

I still might dog it, but agreed, and thanks :grin:

bbb · Nov 15, 2018

this may or may not be one of your issues
since you are shooting more "down" on the cue ball
you may subconsciously not be stroking thru the cueball for fear of slamming your tip into the slate

drawing off the rail

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