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Pedestrian
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12-25-2019, 09:45 AM

How about this ? 9 ball tourn., I played a pretty good safe. My opponent strokes with speed, misses the hit and the cue ball continues on at speed. Just as the cue ball was about to break up two balls stuck together, he grabs the cue ball and hands it to me. Obviously, this requires me to soon address those balls. That should be game as being two fouls on one shot. Correct ?
  
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Bob Jewett
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12-25-2019, 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
How about this ? 9 ball tourn., I played a pretty good safe. My opponent strokes with speed, misses the hit and the cue ball continues on at speed. Just as the cue ball was about to break up two balls stuck together, he grabs the cue ball and hands it to me. Obviously, this requires me to soon address those balls. That should be game as being two fouls on one shot. Correct ?
Two fouls on one shot are counted as one foul -- the more serious foul if they differ. If you miss the object ball and the cue ball scratches that's two fouls but only punished as one.

However, intentionally touching a ball in play is unsportsmanlike conduct. The penalty for that varies, but your opponent made it impossible to complete the game properly. It should be loss of game in this case.


Bob Jewett
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12-25-2019, 12:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
How about this ? 9 ball tourn., I played a pretty good safe. My opponent strokes with speed, misses the hit and the cue ball continues on at speed. Just as the cue ball was about to break up two balls stuck together, he grabs the cue ball and hands it to me. Obviously, this requires me to soon address those balls. That should be game as being two fouls on one shot. Correct ?
Two fouls on one shot are counted as one foul -- the more serious foul if they differ. If you miss the object ball and the cue ball scratches that's two fouls but only punished as one.

However, intentionally touching a ball in play is unsportsmanlike conduct. The penalty for that varies, but your opponent made it impossible to complete the game properly. It should be loss of game in this case.
As expected, Bob's answer is perfect.

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Dave
  
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WoodyJ
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12-29-2019, 01:52 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Under the "official rules" of pool, anything goes if you hit a legal ball 1st and pocket the intended ball in the intended pocket. The 8 can be hit first when the table is open.
Really?

If the table is open, you can use a stripe to combo a solid or vice versa.

However, I imagine that most people I know would argue that after the break when the table is open the 8 ball is never a legal ball to hit first (unless all solids and/or stripes have been pocketed on the break and you are shooting the 8 ball for a win).
  
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12-29-2019, 07:05 AM

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Originally Posted by WoodyJ View Post
Really?

If the table is open, you can use a stripe to combo a solid or vice versa.

However, I imagine that most people I know would argue that after the break when the table is open the 8 ball is never a legal ball to hit first (unless all solids and/or stripes have been pocketed on the break and you are shooting the 8 ball for a win).
Agreed. I edited my post, which was wrong. Addressing the original question, the 8 can be used in a multi-ball combo, but not if it is hit first.

Only under VNEA rules are you allowed to hit the 8 first when the table is open. For more info, see:

differences among APA, BCAPL, and VNEA league rules

Thanks,
Dave
  
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01-18-2020, 06:11 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.
Hi. First post here.
Briefly, I play a little and mostly just try to stay in stroke. I lurk here and on youtube for the matches and interesting tidbits. I find your videos very insightful and they've certainly added to my knowledge.

What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) I can see requiring the cueball be shot away from the frozen ball and back to it if it is the ball in play. Of course the rule for legal contact would still apply. Any thoughts?
  
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01-18-2020, 11:49 AM

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Originally Posted by straightline View Post
Hi. First post here.
Briefly, I play a little and mostly just try to stay in stroke. I lurk here and on youtube for the matches and interesting tidbits. I find your videos very insightful and they've certainly added to my knowledge.

What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) I can see requiring the cueball be shot away from the frozen ball and back to it if it is the ball in play. Of course the rule for legal contact would still apply. Any thoughts?
The current rules allow you to hit into a frozen CB since the shot does not involve a double hit or push. I personally like the rule the way it is, but I see your point that it seems odd to allow the tip, CB, and OB to be in contact at the same time, with the CB not initiating new contact with an OB during the shot.

Regards,
Dave
  
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Bob Jewett
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01-18-2020, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by straightline View Post
... What compelled me to actually log on was the part in the video where you cover frozen balls. It occurs to me that no matter how you hit a cueball that is frozen to another ball, the stick and the two balls will be momentarily contiguous. (not sure if that's the right word) ...
Contiguous seems fine to me. Or "all three simultaneously in contact".

At snooker, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but if you shoot away from it you get credit for having hit it if you want.

At carom, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but depending on the particular game you are playing:
you can choose to shoot away or have the frozen balls spotted
you must have all three balls spotted
(At carom there is a spot for the cue ball; it is never in hand.)

Pool is a different game and by the official rules you have been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball for at least 100 years.


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01-18-2020, 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
The current rules allow you to hit into a frozen CB since the shot does not involve a double hit or push. I personally like the rule the way it is, but I see your point that it seems odd to allow the tip, CB, and OB to be in contact at the same time, with the CB not initiating new contact with an OB during the shot.

Regards,
Dave
I think that imparting motion to the frozen object ball constitutes some degree of push shot. Be that as it may, I do stick to the norms and will "cut" the frozen ball if it is in play or shoot away if it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Contiguous seems fine to me. Or "all three simultaneously in contact".

At snooker, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but if you shoot away from it you get credit for having hit it if you want.

At carom, you must never shoot into a frozen ball but depending on the particular game you are playing:
you can choose to shoot away or have the frozen balls spotted
you must have all three balls spotted
(At carom there is a spot for the cue ball; it is never in hand.)

Pool is a different game and by the official rules you have been allowed to shoot into the frozen ball for at least 100 years.
I was not aware of the snooker rule but I vaguely recall a Texas Express rule that covered the legality of pushots by the exit direction of the cueball; backward, legal / forward, not. Conversely a local 8 ball league deems a ball frozen to the cueball, un hittable, ie. nonexistant and the shooter is free to push through it at a playable ball; even the 8 ball. I don't play on this league but this rule did catch me off guard. lol

Thanks for the responses guys.
  
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03-29-2020, 09:44 AM

Here's another set of important "unwritten rules:"

"Pool Etiquette" thread

Enjoy,
Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I just posted a new video as part of my "Everything You Need to Know" series that demonstrates everything you need to know about how to identify, detect, and avoid fouls in pool. Here it is:


Topics covered (with YouTube time-stamp links) include:
- legal shot (0:21)
- double hit (3:26)
- double hit detection (5:10)
- double hit avoidance (6:57)
---- small-gap angled hit (7:01)
---- elevated cue (7:14)
---- inside vs. outside spin (7:40)
---- short bridge and stroke (8:22)
---- small-gap grip tighten (8:30)
---- highly elevated cue (8:43)
---- hand against the rail (9:08)
---- reverse stroke with cue resting on table (9:28)
---- frozen CB shots (9:52)
-------- twice-as-full aiming system (10:58)
---- elevated follow shot (11:42)
- wrong ball first (12:37)
---- watching CB motion (12:53)
---- watching OB motion (13:31)
---- 3-frozen-OB proposition (14:10)
- miscue fouls (15:59)
---- herding unsportsmanlike intentional miscue foul (16:47)
---- cue lift unsportsmanlike intentional miscue foul (17:15)
---- unsportsmanlike intentional miscue safety foul (17:38)
---- illegal "scoop" jump shot (17:55)
- push shot (18:37)
---- push past frozen ball proposition (19:37)
- Pool Rules Quiz (20:01)

Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.

I wish all league players could somehow be required to watch this video. If they did, there would probably be fewer misunderstandings, disagreements, and arguments. It always shocks me how little most league players (even many good players) know about this important stuff.

Enjoy,
Dave

PS: FYI, all of the rules and fouls in the video are based on the standard WPA World Standardized Rules (the "official rules of pool"). APA, BCAPL, and VNEA league rules deviate slightly, but not by much. A good summary of all important differences can be found here:

  
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03-29-2020, 02:03 PM

Thanks, Dave. Great stuff.


--------

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--------

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03-29-2020, 04:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
Thanks, Dave. Great stuff.
Thanks Freddie. Now you have more possible images of Dr. Dave in silly moments lookin' like a fool with his pants on the ground.

Don't get any thumbs broke, and stay away from the peanut butter,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 03-30-2020 at 08:14 AM.
  
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