"C" Player uses "Feel" to beat the ghost 9-1

I'm at work, so I've only been able to sneak/watch the first couple of racks.

It looks like you've improved since I watched you shoot a bit with Geno in Tunica. You look smooth and methodical. Nothing wrong with that.

I'd say you're ready for the 5-ball Ghost. Either that or you can randomly slam the balls around, like you were, to achieve the table lay-out.....and then attempt to run out WITHOUT taking BIH. If you can consistently beat the 4-ball Ghost at that point, you should definitely step up another ball.

Nice video. Love the classical music in the background. Great looking table and room.

Nice cue:thumbup:. I though I was the only C player in AZ, now I don´t feel alone.

I think the title is slightly misleading. When there is no other description the default is that you beat the ghost in a real game that is played professionally with no handicap. In pool we automatically think of this as the 9, 10 ball ghost and qualify everything else. So to put it in perspective you beat the four ball ghost using feel and Gerry has beaten the 9 ball ghost using ProOne.

Also, since you said you use feel and this is in the aiming section I have to ask what the purpose is of laying your cue down on the table behind the cue ball and then stepping into the shot? Are you using the cue as an aiming device to help you find the line you wish to lay it on?

It appear that you do some sort of routine to aim with rather than simply getting down to shoot with no obvious method. Could you elaborate on what is going through your mind as you approach the shot and why you do the same physical movements each time?

iusedtoberich said:

This is the aiming section, and "feel" is the aiming method probably used by the vast majority of players on the planet.

I lay the stick like that to get my body the right distance from the cueball. It has nothing to do with aiming. I put the stick on the table first, almost touching the cueball. I have my grip hand where it needs to be for the shot, and my feet sort of close together under my grip hand. Then I step into the shot.

I came up with this on my own a few years ago. I really worked at it to come up with a method working backwards from the CB to get my body in the right place, instead of working forwards towards the CB like I used to and everyone else seems to.

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You say your method of aim is "feel". I noticed in a few of your posts, you say it like its a badge of honor and your not the only one I get that impression from also. I am not picking on you personally but just posting an observation. I am not going to critic your level of play because if I did the next poster can critic mine and so on and so on until SVB comes on here and trashes everyone's game

We should decide exactly when the aiming process starts and what is involved in the aiming process. I think most on here just consider the visual from the cue ball to the contact point on the object ball aiming and all the lead up to that is meaningless.

Guys that use systems have become aware of the entire process of aiming step by step, similar to how snooker is taught. (Just yourube some snooker teachers and you will see that this is how they do it)

Now, I also see most on here do not understand that when they are criticizing a system they are showing great amounts of ignorance because they are always criticizing the learning process/steps/the foundations and not the actual system that may take years to evolve into the finished product.

If you have seen stan shuffett's dvd he talks about asking a pro what he see''s when he is in position just before he gets down on the ball. What Stan did is make the pro aware of consistent systematic references he was not aware of and that all great shot making is systematic and most are just not aware of it.

In your video you have figured out a way to be systematic whether you believe it or not. If you dissect every step of your method of aim from the start and try to become aware of repeatable references in your personal aiming method you will become a better shot maker and have an understanding of systems.

Does a pro need to know or care if he shoots systematically? I don't think so and this is why it gets brushed aside by them.

This is all of the top of my head after reading your post, I could probably add stuff or take away the more I think about it and I am open to discussion on this

iusedtoberich said:

If the system guys are entitled to put videos up about system use, I am entitled to put videos up about feel use. This is the aiming section, and "feel" is the aiming method probably used by the vast majority of players on the planet.

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Sure you can put videos up of you playing. And you can say that feel is your aiming method but what does that mean? We have discussed all the other aiming methods and tried to dissect and break them down.

You say you use feel and Patrick Johnson used to say that everyone uses feel even if they don't admit it. I disagree with Pat because I think that feel is a spectrum which goes from no method at all to precise movement leading to a shot line choice. When you get to the precise movement end of the spectrum then you are using a systematic method to insure consistency. Pat would never admit to this and just lumped it all in together.

Like I said, I'm a C player. No way in hell I'll beat the 9 ball ghost. Sure the title was misleading. However, for my speed, this is actually the best I ever shot. My average is about 5 games won out of 10 attempted. So I don't mind embellishing a little bit on what number ghost it was in this thread title. The heading of the video says it was the 4 ball ghost.

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Well, I would hope you were putting this up for honest discussion rather than to simply be contrary and needling. I don't think it's nice of you to denigrate the efforts of Gerry and others on this forum who are making honest and sincere attempts to demonstrate not only how they use the methods they have practiced hard with but also to demonstrate how far they have come with it.

But as far as that goes your motivations are your own and we can only discuss what you present. So with that in mind now we have a benchmark and hope to see what progress you make with "feel".

Gerry is way out of my league. Just like Corey and Schmidt is way out of his league... So that means nothing.

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Actually it means a lot. When a better player than you tells you that he is using a method that works then it's time to listen and observe. I bring this back to leatherworking. I cannot imagine a C-class (read low level amateur) leather worker deliberately mocking any of the good and great leather workers like the c-class players on AZB do to the better players.

For myself I sit at the feet of great leather workers like Bob Park, Ron Ross, Peter Main, etc... and try every technique and piece of advice they give out. I would never presume to mock them in any way. (unless of course they were in direct conflict with me which I hope would never happen, I haven't seen any of these guys be disrespectful to anyone ever)

When they speak amateurs like me listen.

I lay the stick like that to get my body the right distance from the cueball. It has nothing to do with aiming. I put the stick on the table first, almost touching the cueball. I have my grip hand where it needs to be for the shot, and my feet sort of close together under my grip hand. Then I step into the shot. I came up with this on my own a few years ago. I really worked at it to come up with a method working backwards from the CB to get my body in the right place, instead of working forwards towards the CB like I used to and everyone else seems to. I've never seen anyone else do what I do, and most people tell me I look goofy. lol.

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Getting your body in the right position is aiming. That's what aiming is when you are using an instrument to manipulate an object in a direction. It doesn't matter if it's pool, golf, hockey, or archery, you have to face the target correctly. You're not using "feel" to do this you are using the cue stick to align yourself to the ball. This picking a line and stepping on and into it is actually a well known technique.

Any time you are using objects to guide you then you are not using (pure) feel. It doesn't matter if those objects are the balls as in CTE, an imaginary ball as in Ghost Ball (based off the pocket and real object ball), the pocket as in Back of Ball Contact Point Aiming, or the Cue as a pointing device. You have chosen an objective method that gives you a level of consistency. You may think it's pure feel but in fact it's closer to the precision side of the spectrum than the pure feel side in my opinion.

Just to clarify my position on this, pure feel to me is simply guessing, you get down on what you think is right with no help or use of other objects. Precision aiming to me is the use of guides to zero in on a line. I would say that Ghost Ball use falls squarely in the center of this line.

Most people who play pool often and competitively land somewhere between the middle of this spectrum and the precision end.

Anyway, thank you for sharing because we should discuss what "feel" is in aiming.

iusedtoberich said:

The One:

You are not going to take my video and try to claim I use some sort of systematic system to aim. I do not. I do not see any edges, or shadows, or centers, or pivots, or contact spots, or contact patches, or ghost balls, etc. When the shot looks right, I shoot.

Believe me, I read tons and tons and tons on this very forum before there was an aiming section about all the aiming systems. All the pivot systems, all the BHE systems, watched Spiders videos, Barton's videos, the 90/90 videos, the TAR videos, etc. I even tried some of the pivot systems just for the hell of it on the table. You probably read and participated in the same threads before you were banned. I am very versed in the systems available as discussed in this forum. I will not buy the pro1 dvd because I do not agree with what I know about it from reading on this forum. In fact I would not watch it if it was given to me for free. If it works for you, great. This is not being closed minded. I put countless of hours into reading about it, and formed my conclusion that I will not invest more of my time into it.

Yes, I'm proud of being a "feel" player. I am taking the descending "opinion" on this particular forum. However, in the real pool halls, I would bet anything that feel is the predominate method used.

I will continue to show videos from time to time of how feel can work just fine. I have my camera setup a bit better than what was in this video, so the picture should be a bit clearer on future videos.

By the way, the video was not made for me to demonstrate feel. I actually record many of my practice sessions, and make notes of the time stamp of the shots I missed. Then the intent is to go back and set up those shots and practice them again. I have about 30 recorded sessions that I need to scrub though to work on the missed shots. This way I'm working on my weaknesses, guaranteed.

But after I saw all the videos about how people are shooting well with aiming systems, I decided to also show shooting well with feel.

Best to all, both system and non-system users

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So if you set up the same shot ten times in a row. Your feet/body/head/eyes will not be in virtually the exact same position on every shot and there is good chance the every individual shot will be made with a different visual/body alignment? You think a pro shoots like that?

iusedtoberich said:

The One:

You are not going to take my video and try to claim I use some sort of systematic system to aim. I do not. I do not see any edges, or shadows, or centers, or pivots, or contact spots, or contact patches, or ghost balls, etc. When the shot looks right, I shoot.

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I understand that you think you are choosing the line based on feel but you aren't. You are choosing the line using your cue to point it out and then getting down on that line and shooting on that line.

Believe me, I read tons and tons and tons on this very forum before there was an aiming section about all the aiming systems. All the pivot systems, all the BHE systems, watched Spiders videos, Barton's videos, the 90/90 videos, the TAR videos, etc. I even tried some of the pivot systems just for the hell of it on the table. You probably read and participated in the same threads before you were banned. I am very versed in the systems available as discussed in this forum. I will not buy the pro1 dvd because I do not agree with what I know about it from reading on this forum. In fact I would not watch it if it was given to me for free. If it works for you, great. This is not being closed minded. I put countless of hours into reading about it, and formed my conclusion that I will not invest more of my time into it.

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And that's all fine except now you actually seem to go out of your way to mock others for using systems.

Yes, I'm proud of being a "feel" player. I am taking the descending "opinion" on this particular forum. However, in the real pool halls, I would bet anything that feel is the predominate method used.

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Feel is not a method. A method by nature is systematic. Pure feel is chaotic and guessing. And you don't have to bet, of course most amateurs play without precise methods of aiming. If it were otherwise we would have nothing to discuss. But honestly beating the 4 ball ghost is nothing to be proud of or brag about.

I will continue to show videos from time to time of how feel can work just fine. I have my camera setup a bit better than what was in this video, so the picture should be a bit clearer on future videos.

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Fine for what? For beating the 4 ball ghost? I mean let's be serious for a second and admit that we are all trying to be much better than that as players. If you can't beat the 4 ball ghost you shouldn't even post anything to anyone about playing pool ever anywhere.

By the way, the video was not made for me to demonstrate feel.

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Then why did you post it here?

I actually record many of my practice sessions, and make notes of the time stamp of the shots I missed. Then the intent is to go back and set up those shots and practice them again. I have about 30 recorded sessions that I need to scrub though to work on the missed shots. This way I'm working on my weaknesses, guaranteed.

But after I saw all the videos about how people are shooting well with aiming systems, I decided to also show shooting well with feel.

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Shooting well is beating the 9 ball ghost. Beating the 4 ball ghost (in fact this isn't or shouldn't even be a term because there is not a 4 ball game) isn't shooting well it's only a small stepping stone to shooting well. We can argue the semantics but honestly it's not an accomplishment worth bragging about to be able to run four balls more often than you miss running them. Anyone who has played pool for a short length of time ought to be able to do this fairly easily with a small amount of instruction and practice.

Best to all, both system and non-system users

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I hope you sincerely mean this but unfortunately think you don't.

My 2 cents

My thoughts inserted below...

iusedtoberich said:

The One:

You are not going to take my video and try to claim I use some sort of systematic system to aim. I do not. I do not see any edges, or shadows, or centers, or pivots, or contact spots, or contact patches, or ghost balls, etc. When the shot looks right, I shoot.

If you didn't see any of this the shot could never look right to you. If you don't see an edge or centre how do you think you make any shots - you are only kidding yourself. You need a reference - you use it whether you know it or not.

Believe me, I read tons and tons and tons on this very forum before there was an aiming section about all the aiming systems. All the pivot systems, all the BHE systems, watched Spiders videos, Barton's videos, the 90/90 videos, the TAR videos, etc. I even tried some of the pivot systems just for the hell of it on the table. You probably read and participated in the same threads before you were banned. I am very versed in the systems available as discussed in this forum. I will not buy the pro1 dvd because I do not agree with what I know about it from reading on this forum. In fact I would not watch it if it was given to me for free. If it works for you, great. This is not being closed minded. I put countless of hours into reading about it, and formed my conclusion that I will not invest more of my time into it.

Up to you of course, I have experimented with 4-5 different systems and have taken instruction from Joe Tucker, Tom Simpson and Stan Shuffett - became a better player each time. Being closed minded only limits your potential.

Yes, I'm proud of being a "feel" player. I am taking the descending "opinion" on this particular forum. However, in the real pool halls, I would bet anything that feel is the predominate method used.

Why are you 'proud' of being a feel player? I am proud when I play well and win! Don't care how I get there.

I will continue to show videos from time to time of how feel can work just fine. I have my camera setup a bit better than what was in this video, so the picture should be a bit clearer on future videos.

I guarantee 2 players of equal ability - the one with 'feel' will lose to the one with knowledge. Feel is ok on most of the shots you play - but the tough ones with the match on the line is a different story.

By the way, the video was not made for me to demonstrate feel. I actually record many of my practice sessions, and make notes of the time stamp of the shots I missed. Then the intent is to go back and set up those shots and practice them again. I have about 30 recorded sessions that I need to scrub though to work on the missed shots. This way I'm working on my weaknesses, guaranteed.

But after I saw all the videos about how people are shooting well with aiming systems, I decided to also show shooting well with feel.

Try shooting some of these with feel and report back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHkviOkR9m4

Best to all, both system and non-system users

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He is set in his ways and very closed minded even about how/why things work. Too bad for him because he seems to really enjoy the game and will never level up much at all with his way of thinking.

iusedtoberich said:

I don't jump into threads on pro1 and say you guys are wasting your time. You guys are jumping into my thread on feel and saying 1. I'm either using a system yet just don't know it, or 2. that I'm stupid for not willing to try a "system"

If you show me a way to improve my hand eye coordination, I'm all ears. Or a way that I can improve my pattern selection.

But claiming that lining up to the edge of the balls and pivoting to center (paraphrasing of course) will do nothing.

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I am just shooting the shit with you and trying to discuss aiming. Is that not why you posted your video or was it just your way of taking a shot at aiming systems :grin: I guess you lowered yourself just a bit to close to the spiders web and you are now caught and unable to logically defend yourself. You havent made a good point yet and have shown you are not ready to discuss the actual details involved in the aiming process other than to say it is just "feel" :grin:

iusedtoberich said:

Jerry nice shooting. I will try those shots sometime. I can definitely make them all, but I doubt on the first attempt like you did.

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Systems aside, You need to change your outlook on development. You are to close minded now and will go to your grave playing the same speed for the next 30 years. :thumbup:

iusedtoberich said:

The One:

I'm just offering a descending view in this forum, without going into a system thread and saying you don't need that. I don't do that to be respectful of those who want to learn a system.

Many of the aiming guys here have a home table and camera. I see video after video showing how this aiming system helps to pocket these balls.

I am offering a feel video showing that feel also pockets balls. It is my prerogative, and maybe will influence someone to learn about feel.

Why is that any different than Barton posting a video about CTE so someone can learn about CTE?

I can't believe I'm in a back and forth with JB and a banned member. I guess the joke is on me now. I will bow out.

Jerry, I will try your shots and report back later. Thanks.

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I have been trying to be cool with you and discuss aiming with you. This is the third time you have brought up this banning thing! Dude you play like an apa 4 and you come in here in your pathetic attempt to trash aiming systems with a silly newbie video! Your not at the level of knowledge or understanding to do this and would advise you to stop because your embarrassing yourself with your lack of knowledge and understanding and i dont just mean pool. Now go get me banned because I will always come back because of guys just like you that need to be educated and again not only about pool :thumbup: