Why get so caught up on fundamentals?

What you seem to be advocating is akin to a golfer learning to live with his slice.

I work on fundamentals because they're the foundation on which my game is built. If I have to make corrections for errors in set-up and stroke, I can't spend as much time on position play and the other mental aspects of the game.

Continually re-enforcing and refining the fundamentals gives you an opportunity for consistency in your game. If the fundamentals are flawed, when a bad habit arises, it is much more difficult to pin down what it is.

Having a baseline to go back to gives a player a sounding board to do a functions check on your game/stroke/routine. Without it you could be flying blind when trying to fix an unknown flaw.

By no means should this be the sole concentration. But taking 15 to 20 minutes to run over the basics is not going to do you any harm by any means, and will strengthen everything else by increasing the ability to consistently deliver the tip of the cue to the CB as desired.

Strong fundamentals will help you progress quicker and give you better consistency.

I keep hearing that long straight in shots are one of the hardest shot. It definitely is not. Those who say that are pretty much saying that their fundamentals are faulty.

Some True

Some of what you say is true however when I started giving lessons I ran across people that could barely carry their cue into the room much less make balls with it and that is when what you know about teaching fundamentals will separate the men from the boys.

I've read some interesting comments from Robert Byrne that support your position and I agree with it to an extent but I also see people who hit a wall when they use a bad fundamental over a number of years so they are important.

The one thing I do to check to see that mine aren't terrible is shoot shots in off the rail that are dead straight, full table where its hard to stop the cue ball. If I can do that then my fundamental stance and alignment are good and this lets me feel what it is like to be better setup for that shot. I don't require such exacting standards for much shorter shots as the one I practice but its good to I can get there.

As far as fundamentals go, its not just alignment, stance and stroke. There are fundamental type knowledge for many areas of the game that most people don't consider as fundamentals but once you learn them, you start to see repeatable results. I have fundamentals I use for speed control, banking and aiming shots. The older I get the more important I see that some of that fundamental knowledge actually is.

I do agree that some times the fundamentals get a lot more press than they should when someone need to learn to make some balls in order to get to the next level.

Good post.

Flip_dat_Quarta said:

I don't understand why everyone on here seems to be so caught up with fundamentals? Fundamentals are just the base of your game. You should develop your fundamentals within the first few years of playing and move on to something else.

No one has perfect fundamentals but there is a base model that you should try to mimic and then slightly adjust for your own comfort. You should never spend years dwelling on tiny fundamentals trying to be 100% perfect. It's time to move on and learn how to play the game.

There is so much more to playing top level pool then fundamentals. Sure if you have some crazy fundamental flaw that is obviously holding you back you should address it but chances are at this point it's too late and you are too far set in your ways. And of course every now and then you make a minor adjustment in the way you stroke but you're not making yourself super uncomfortable so you have a perfect pendulum stroke or whatever.

Why not put all your focus on position play or speed control? Chances are, that's what your game is lacking...


fun-da-men-tal

adjective
1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying:
fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

2. of, relating to, or affecting the foundation or basis:
a fundamental revision.

3. being an original or primary source:
a fundamental idea.

Click to expand...

Flip_dat_Quarta said:

I don't understand why everyone on here seems to be so caught up with fundamentals? Fundamentals are just the base of your game. You should develop your fundamentals within the first few years of playing and move on to something else.

No one has perfect fundamentals but there is a base model that you should try to mimic and then slightly adjust for your own comfort. You should never spend years dwelling on tiny fundamentals trying to be 100% perfect. It's time to move on and learn how to play the game.

There is so much more to playing top level pool then fundamentals. Sure if you have some crazy fundamental flaw that is obviously holding you back you should address it but chances are at this point it's too late and you are too far set in your ways. And of course every now and then you make a minor adjustment in the way you stroke but you're not making yourself super uncomfortable so you have a perfect pendulum stroke or whatever.

Why not put all your focus on position play or speed control? Chances are, that's what your game is lacking...


fun-da-men-tal

adjective
1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying:
fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

2. of, relating to, or affecting the foundation or basis:
a fundamental revision.

3. being an original or primary source:
a fundamental idea.

Click to expand...

Yes there are basic fundamentals but to be honest that list is very short.

Hence each individual should have their own set of their own fundamentals that yields good results, the best results for them.

There are very many professional golf swings on the PGA tour & I think one would be very hard pressed to find even two that are exactly alike, except where it counts & that is when the ball is being struck.

If they were to wait until they were able to perform the perfect golf swing they would NEVER play professional golf.

If one likes the pursuit of perfection they will probably stay at the driving range for their entire lives & never even venture onto a golf course.

Then... who is to say what is a perfect golf swing? They might spend their entire lives pursuing what the majority interprets to be the perfect swing only to find out that what they were pursuing was not the perfect swing but only what the majority saw as a teachable swing. The real perfect swing may have been something quite different.

So... I agree with you. Necessity breeds results. Play the game & as CJ Wiley always said WHEN he was still here & had not gotten fed up with those trying to shut him up...

The Game Is The Teacher...

Just Play It.

Best Wishes for You & Yours,
Rick

I am of the belief that you shouldn't dwell on every minute detail of the so called fundamentals, however each person should take the time to learn their own fundamentals. I took a six year layoff. Upon return I found that my game was far more consistent and my shot making was better than when I stopped. The difference was definitely fundamental in nature. I forgot the bad habits I learned and from day one of my return I was telling myself to use the fundamentals I had learned. I have never relearned the bad habits I had before. To be clear, I played well before it took a break, however my fundamentals were flawed. Upon improving them I shot better. I do take some time every now and again to ensure that I am doing what I fundamentally should be doing.

IMO, as long as you keep thinking of this or that when shooting, you will never hit your best game. Too much of the little stuff worried about on here. Practice is when you think. Johnnyt

erhino41 said:

I am of the belief that you shouldn't dwell on every minute detail of the so called fundamentals, however each person should take the time to learn their own fundamentals. I took a six year layoff. Upon return I found that my game was far more consistent and my shot making was better than when I stopped. The difference was definitely fundamental in nature. I forgot the bad habits I learned and from day one of my return I was telling myself to use the fundamentals I had learned. I have never relearned the bad habits I had before. To be clear, I played well before it took a break, however my fundamentals were flawed. Upon improving them I shot better. I do take some time every now and again to ensure that I am doing what I fundamentally should be doing.

Click to expand...

I think this is an extreme example but layoffs are definitely more common among non-professionals. We have lives. We take long breaks and don't always get a lot of time to practice. Developing bad habits happens. I don't think the entire forum is necessarily stuck in first gear, per se. We revisit the fundamentals from time to time to re-enforce them and/or to evaluate our current shot routines.

There is nothing more frustrating than playing a notch or two below your top speed. I've had this happen for very long stretches. You have this year where beating anyone in the world doesn't feel insurmountable and then suddenly, you can't get out to save your life. You think, I just need some time to practice and it'll all come back but sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you have to review every single muscle and see if it's firing correctly.

Johnnyt said:

IMO, as long as you keep thinking of this or that when shooting, you will never hit your best game. Too much of the little stuff worried about on here. Practice is when you think. Johnnyt

Click to expand...

Agreed.

But some will agree & not understand that if one is constantly thinking about little stroke details during 'practice' it is very difficult to turn that off when actually playing.

Many amateur golfers simply can not do that. They can not go onto a golf course & leave what they were thinking about on the driving range.

Pros, for the most part, can. They actually have 3 segments.

1. Work on something at the range.
2. Play a practice round of golf
3. Compete where there is no practice.

Butch Harmon is a great golf instructor & coach because he does not have a prescribed cookie cutter "fundamental" swing in mind. He will merely tweak a persons 'natural' swing or the one they are now using to get an improvement out of it. Then over time with a tweak every now & then a new swing has been built that the individual can get 'the most' out of.

To take an individual & preach that THIS is the way, now do it, is not the way to go. At least not to me & I have coached the 3 major sports & golf from children to young adults.

Pro golfers only take one or two thoughts with them when trying to change their swing & two is probably one too many.

Best Wishes for You & Yours.

You can build a stable house on a completely warped and moving baseplate, right?
You absolutely like it to walk on a crooked floor with nails standing out, right?
You like it to think about every step you take and which muscles you need to move, right?

Just to get you thinking.

Flip_dat_Quarta said:

I don't understand why everyone on here seems to be so caught up with fundamentals? Fundamentals are just the base of your game. You should develop your fundamentals within the first few years of playing and move on to something else.

No one has perfect fundamentals but there is a base model that you should try to mimic and then slightly adjust for your own comfort. You should never spend years dwelling on tiny fundamentals trying to be 100% perfect. It's time to move on and learn how to play the game.

There is so much more to playing top level pool then fundamentals. Sure if you have some crazy fundamental flaw that is obviously holding you back you should address it but chances are at this point it's too late and you are too far set in your ways. And of course every now and then you make a minor adjustment in the way you stroke but you're not making yourself super uncomfortable so you have a perfect pendulum stroke or whatever.

Why not put all your focus on position play or speed control? Chances are, that's what your game is lacking...


fun-da-men-tal

adjective
1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying:
fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

2. of, relating to, or affecting the foundation or basis:
a fundamental revision.

3. being an original or primary source:
a fundamental idea.

Click to expand...

Please tell me you are joking.

ENGLISH! said:

But some will agree & not understand that if one is constantly thinking about little stroke details during 'practice' it is very difficult to turn that off when actually playing.

Click to expand...

It couldn't be truer.

That being said, it doesn't mean you can't work on your fundamental. You just need to be aware that it will impact your game (negatively) when thinking about it. That's why I work in period of weeks or even months. I'd be working on my fundamentals (or what ever really) for sometime, understanding that my game may temporarely go down.. only to get better afterward.

then after that working practice, I go back for a couple weeks/months about not thinking about anything and only playing with my subconscious driving the show. Of course, it takes some time at the table to transition from practice to play (can take a week or two).

I like to consciously decide what I wanna do for the coming weeks! I plan that according to tournament I want to attend that are important to me. So a month or so before an important tournament, I would stop trying to change anything and/or learn new tricks and focus only on my feeling, subconscious play.

Great fundamentals in pool are much easier to achieve than great fundamentals in golf!

Why?

Because of fewer moving parts.

In a great cue stroke, unless a lot of force is needed for the shot: the body is essentially motionless, the arm is basically moving on one plane, requiring contraction of the tricep on the backstroke and bicep on the forward stroke, the wrist is basically hinging on one plane, the grip is essentially relaxed, with a very slight increase in tension at the very end of the stroke.

In a great golf swing, one has to deal with: spine angle, shoulder plane, arm plane, hip plane, shaft plane, wrist hinge, compression and decompression of several parts of the body and arms, rotation of the torso, legs and arms, maintenance of lumbar, thoracic and cervical spine elongation, disassociation of upper and lower torso acceleration and deceleration, maximizing torque while minimizing potential injury to the moving parts, maintenance of the radius as the arc needs to compress and decompress, loading, storage and releasing of energy while every single part of the body; torso, neck, head, legs, feet, arms and hands are moving at different speeds, angles, and on different planes, controlled by muscle contractions in virtually every part of the body. Then...after releasing the energy as efficiently as possible at impact compression, must dissipate that energy as soon as possible after separation, to decrease stress on the anatomical parts as much as possible during the follow-through and at the finish. All of this must be regulated in harmony in the moving parts, while rotating and/or tilting and moving laterally on the sagittal, frontal and transverse planes.

That being said; one can learn and train a fantastic stroke in pool, much sooner than they could learn and train a fantastic golf swing.

Additionally...bad habits in stroking a cue can be eliminated in much less time than bad habits in a golf swing...if all other factors are equal.

Look at the best pool players in the world today.

Look at their fundamentals.

That's why.

.


:frown:



I know people that took lessons for years....

They look real pretty when they shoot....

And they are still a APA handicap #5....

Just make the balls....





.

yeah...

One of the people I started teaching I didn't let him hit a ball for a week. I made him practice stroking with correct fundamentals...edit:we were practicing 6-10 hours a day every day that week...

He's now one of the top players in Colorado....

So yes, working on fundamentals is VERY important...

Jaden

I suppose it's possible there are some pool players somewhere who are overly concerned about fundamentals. I've just never met one.

BeiberLvr said:

Look at the best pool players in the world today.

Look at their fundamentals.

That's why.

Click to expand...

I would highly recommend Allison Fischer as to who to watch for great fundamentals! After you get bored there,,,, check my idol,,, Mr. Francisco Bustamante! He would be a prime example of perfect fundamentals

CJ is probably king when it comes to fundamentals! Only through emails, he was able to step my game up and I became a decent ball pocketer! I had to give up playing due to health issues but I can clearly say that fundamentals are important. But only to am extent!

I would focus on long dead straight shots an many different speeds! If you can hit those at a very high with awesome results,,, start focusing on what's happening beyond your tip! Because everything behind your tip is fine!

Only if you're shooting the straight shots