whats the secret on cut shots on the short rail?

judochoke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
man I have a lot of misses and near misses on the cut shot on the short rail, with the objec)t ball 6 too 7 inches from the pocket. I hit middle cue ball and I miss, I hit a little inside English to give the ball a spin, and I miss. I try to hit softly, I try to hit harder, and I miss. this shot is killing me. I know that im missing something. (cue ball 12 inches away from object ball or closer

outside English to give the cue ball spin? middle ball?

am I just missing my edge to edge lineup??

thanks for any info. judo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
man I have a lot of misses and near misses on the cut shot on the short rail, with the objec)t ball 6 too 7 inches from the pocket. I hit middle cue ball and I miss, I hit a little inside English to give the ball a spin, and I miss. I try to hit softly, I try to hit harder, and I miss. this shot is killing me. I know that im missing something. (cue ball 12 inches away from object ball or closer

outside English to give the cue ball spin? middle ball?

am I just missing my edge to edge lineup??

thanks for any info. judo

Is the object ball frozen to the rail? If not, how far off the rail is it? Also, set up the shot in the opposite direction. Do you still miss it as much?
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I shoot real thin cut shots with high English and a medium speed.
the harder you hit it the more cut induced throw comes into play and you will under cut the ball.
 

Knels

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Im no instructor but proper head position over the cue is quite essential. Rail cut shots were always a little wonky for me until I started emphasizing placing my left eye over the cue ( I’m right handed). For you it could be any eye, or even the chin
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The closer the object ball is to the rail the more the throw effect has on it going in.
If the object ball is of the rail 6 inches there almost a whole pocket size to work with.

if the object ball is almost frozen there is less room for error.
And i still think the harder you hit a cut shot the more throw there is.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
i still think the harder you hit a cut shot the more throw there is.
Seems like it should be that way, right? But, like Bob says, try freezing a couple of balls so the combo is pointed at a target (like a diamond) and hitting them with the CB from the same angle but at different speeds (no side spin). You should see more throw at lower speeds.

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
thats a hanger if you are close to the object ball.
how do you miss that one?
For a while I hit cut shots on the end rails (but not side rails) too full. I got over it, but never could figure why it happened. This thread reminded me of it, and gave me a new idea: maybe it's that you stand differently for end rail shots vs. side rail shots.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Object ball is one ball width from the rail.

To figure out a problem, you have to go through a process of elimination. If you're feeling insecure about the shot, you may be trying to steer the cue stick. Eliminate that possibility first. Pick a spot on the cb and ob and stay with it all the way. Resist the temptation of trying to correct your stroke in mid-stroke, even if you feel last minute that you're going to miss. Allow yourself to miss but don't steer. Then you have a frame of reference with which you can make adjustments.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Seems like it should be that way, right? But, like Bob says, try freezing a couple of balls so the combo is pointed at a target (like a diamond) and hitting them with the CB from the same angle but at different speeds (no side spin). You should see more throw at lower speeds.

pj
chgo

Whole different scenario.
With frozen balls the softer you hit the more they throw.
And you can put spin on the cue ball to enhance the gear effect.
Different from a cut shot.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Whole different scenario.
With frozen balls the softer you hit the more they throw.
And you can put spin on the cue ball to enhance the gear effect.
Different from a cut shot.
If you ever want a second opinion (more authoritative than mine), here's Dr. Dave's "resource page" on the topic. He says, "Maximum cut-induced throw (CIT), with no english, occurs with a slow-speed stun shot at about a 1/2-ball hit."

pj
chgo
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
man I have a lot of misses and near misses on the cut shot on the short rail, with the objec)t ball 6 too 7 inches from the pocket. I hit middle cue ball and I miss, I hit a little inside English to give the ball a spin, and I miss. I try to hit softly, I try to hit harder, and I miss. this shot is killing me. I know that im missing something. (cue ball 12 inches away from object ball or closer

outside English to give the cue ball spin? middle ball?

am I just missing my edge to edge lineup??

thanks for any info. judo

Often it is necessary to hit those shots soft. When you do the cue ball cling to the object ball forces it to the rail. If you keep hitting the rail try over cutting a little on soft shots. With more speed the cling doesn't seem to be as big a factor. This is not my idea it is the result of watching a TON of training videos and then watching it play out. I can usually predict when my teammates or opponents will miss this shot and it is always a soft shot cut perfectly but hits the rail and does not go in.

Another factor is getting too straight in and having too little angle so you try to make the cue ball do a trick to get position. Nothing like a hard hit with a ton of English to make you miss a "simple" shot.

Although a shot 6-7" from the pocket does seem hard to miss, unless you are shooting off the rail from the other end of the table.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
Often it is necessary to hit those shots soft. When you do the cue ball cling to the object ball forces it to the rail. If you keep hitting the rail try over cutting a little on soft shots. With more speed the cling doesn't seem to be as big a factor. ...
That's not cling. That's throw. Cling is very large throw, not just slightly larger throw. Cling is also called skid in the US, "kick" by snooker players, and "bad contact" by lots of players.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's not cling. That's throw. Cling is very large throw, not just slightly larger throw. Cling is also called skid in the US, "kick" by snooker players, and "bad contact" by lots of players.

My understanding is throw is related to spin. Object ball is thrown opposite the direction of the spin on the cue ball.

Cling is the simple friction of two balls colliding at an angle. The cling effect being larger with balls that are dirty or chalk smudged and is more pronounced at low speed.

Both have the same effect, I just thought Throw was related to spin. Perhaps I have that wrong.
 

skipbales

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My understanding is throw is related to spin. Object ball is thrown opposite the direction of the spin on the cue ball.

Cling is the simple friction of two balls colliding at an angle. The cling effect being larger with balls that are dirty or chalk smudged and is more pronounced at low speed.

Both have the same effect, I just thought Throw was related to spin. Perhaps I have that wrong.

I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taEBDVQBYQ and understand what you are saying. Cling is exaggerated throw based on conditions which is not the issue here (or could be but not necessarily as we don't know the conditions).

What I am saying is the effect of a little cut induced throw usually doesn't matter but with the cut shots along the end rail it is common to have to hit soft for position which makes that small amount of throw critical where it normally doesn't make enough difference to cause a miss. It isn't exaggerated throw, but it is enough on these close to the rail cuts to almost always force the object ball into the rail. On my table that is going to be a miss. On a Valley table at the bar it still goes in.

The other common situation is not enough angle requiring more spin and or a hard hit, both of which cause a lot of misses.

As always Bob thanks for the clarification. My goal is to learn something every day. So I am already one up. :thumbup:
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
... Object ball is thrown opposite the direction of the spin on the cue ball. ...
No. The object ball is thrown according to the motion of the surface of the cue ball across the surface of the object ball. It is possible to play a shot with (a little) right side spin and throw the object ball to the right (on a thin cut to the left).
 
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