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New rack both balls in the rack area
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Althair
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New rack both balls in the rack area - 10-29-2019, 06:15 PM

OK - cue ball and 15th ball (break ball or play safety). You spot the object ball on the head spot and play the cue ball from in the kitchen. My question is: IS THE OBJECT BALL LOCATED ON THE HEAD SPOT LEGAL TO SHOOT AT? My impression is that a ball ON the head string is not "in" the kitchen and should be a legal shot. But I'm having difficulty finding the right answer in the official BCA rules. Thank you!

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crazysnake
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10-29-2019, 07:16 PM

You can shoot the spotted ball on the head spot.

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Bob Jewett
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10-30-2019, 04:12 AM

If the cue ball and 15th ball both interfere with the rack all 15 are racked and the cue ball is in hand. Of course that is a disaster to be avoided if you want to continue your run.

Here is the section from the World Standardized Rules. They are available for free on-line: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#4...ing-Situations I think they are relatively clear but I am prejudiced.

4.8 Special Racking Situations

When the cue ball or fifteenth object ball interferes with racking fourteen balls for a new rack, the following special rules apply. A ball is considered to interfere with the rack if it is within or overlaps the outline of the rack. The referee will state when asked whether a ball interferes with the rack.

(a) If the fifteenth ball was pocketed on the shot that scored the fourteenth ball, all fifteen balls are re-racked.

(b) If both balls interfere, all fifteen balls are re-racked and the cue ball is in hand behind the head string.

(c) If only the object ball interferes, it is placed on the head spot or the center spot if the cue ball blocks the head spot.

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

In any case, there is no restriction on which object ball the shooter may play as the first shot of the new rack.

If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidentally moved by the referee when racking.


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10-30-2019, 04:29 AM

I believe that the rules covering the special racking situations have not changed in the last 50 years and maybe not in the last 100 years, so it is hard for someone to argue that they were mistaken due to the previous rule being different. That is sometimes an excuse.


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Bob Jewett
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10-30-2019, 04:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysnake View Post
You can shoot the spotted ball on the head spot.
...
It is true that if an object ball is exactly on the headspot (or more generally on the headstring) it is a legal target with the cue ball in hand. It is not true that this pertains to both balls interfering.

If this were the case, you would see a lot of players trying to leave both balls in the rack when they were stuck for a break shot because while the ball on the headspot is not a nice break shot, it is a break shot.


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10-30-2019, 04:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
It is true that if an object ball is exactly on the headspot (or more generally on the headstring) it is a legal target with the cue ball in hand.
Let's say you pocket this ball on the headspot but the cue ball never crosses the headstring (a stop shot for instance). Would this be a legal shot?

A 'house' rule where I play is that the entire object ball must be over the headstring (outside the kitchen) for it to be a legal ball to shoot at when you have cue ball in hand in the kitchen. Is this a common rule?
  
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10-30-2019, 05:18 AM

Thanks for clearing that up. Isn't there a situation where the 15 the ball goes on the center spot and you have cue ball in have behind the head string?

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crazysnake
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10-30-2019, 05:21 AM

Never mind, I see it's addressed in Bob's reply.

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10-30-2019, 02:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Here is the section from the World Standardized Rules. They are available for free on-line: https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#4...ing-Situations I think they are relatively clear but I am prejudiced.

4.8 Special Racking Situations

If the cue ball or object ball is barely outside the marked rack area and it is time to rack, the referee should mark the position of the ball to allow it to be accurately replaced if it is accidentally moved by the referee when racking.
Never saw it done, and no mention of that procedure in the old BCA rulebook.
I guess the current generation of players who can no longer reliably avoid fouling an object ball while shooting, canít be trusted (when acting as their opponentís referee) to lift the triangle straight up either (?).
  
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JimGinPhx
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10-31-2019, 08:18 AM

no comment

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10-31-2019, 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGinPhx View Post
If, at the end of the rack, both the 15th object ball and cue ball end up in the rack area,....
The official, written rules are posted above. I think they differ from your post.


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11-01-2019, 01:06 AM

"If, at the end of the rack, both the 15th object ball and cue ball end up in the rack area,
the object ball is spotted on the head string spot and the cue ball is in hand in the kitchen."



This question about the last ball (15th ball) and the CB both being left in the rack area is one
that is ask at least two or three times a season in our straight pool league.

The most common mistake is that the "head spot" is mistaken for the "foot spot".

The 15th ball goes on the "foot spot" NOT the "head spot".

Therefore, all the balls are racked in a full rack and the the CB is ball-in-hand behind the head string.
Then it's simply a continuation of the run and NOT a break shot.

So, after shooting the CB and contacting an OB, either an OB or the CB has to contact a rail for it to be
a legal shot. Failure to contact a rail after the CB contacts an OB, or failure to contact an OB entirely,
or a scratch shot, is only a 1 point foul and counts against the 3 foul rule.




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JimGinPhx
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11-01-2019, 10:50 PM

No comment.

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11-02-2019, 07:26 AM

(d) If only the cue ball interferes, then it is placed as follows: if the object ball is in front of or on the head string, the cue ball is in hand behind the head string; if the object ball is behind the head string, the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, or on the center spot if the head spot is blocked.

This is the one I wasnít sure about. If the cue ball is in the rack and the object ball is in the kitchen, what do I do? This clears up a lot. The only question I have is if the object ball is behind the head string and the cue ball is spotted on the head spot, can the object ball be pocketed straight in and not banked off the foot rail in the two pockets behind the head string? Also, where is the center spot? Dead center of the table?
  
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11-02-2019, 10:32 AM

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