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08-29-2014, 08:11 PM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Right. What value could anyone possibly find in being the man who broke the 526.

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I know,I stopped at 526.


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08-29-2014, 08:29 PM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Right. What value could anyone possibly find in being the man who broke the 526.

Lou Figueroa
that is a good question. what actual value would there be? paid invitations to tournaments? probably not.

motivational speaking gigs? probably not.

would people accept testimony that a run happened or would it need to be on video? if on video then i guess the player could possibly make a little money selling the dvd.

other than a point of pride and recognition i dont know what the record would be worth.

after all, the only reason it is a record is because of the affidavit. Mosconi was already famous for his tournament and challenge match victories.


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08-29-2014, 08:39 PM

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Originally Posted by cleary View Post
btw, Mosconi's famous 526 was on a 8' table with very large pockets. Put up $5million prize and it will be beat, on video, within a year on a similar table.
Mosconi didn't get paid any extra to run 526, he just did it on a whim.
  
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08-29-2014, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Strongly disagree. The pocket size on the tables used in the 2013 DCC 14.1 challenge was much smaller than was typical in the Golden Age of Straight Pool. I saw Irving Crane play straight pool on countless occasions, and I think he would have been hard pressed to run 200 on the DCC equipment in 2013 which was, to be fair, absolutely ridiculous.
You believe equipment was better in the 1930's than in 2013? No air conditioning, no modern cue technology, no fast cloth?

What was the pocket size on the table Crane used to run 300? He was a vocal critic of tables with large pockets because he thought it gave weak players an advantage? Do you know for a fact the pocket size?

I would say Crane was at a significant disadvantage with the equipment he had when he ran 300 in the 1930's.
  
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08-29-2014, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by sjm View Post
The corners at the 2013 DCC 14.1 Challenge were 4 1/2". In contrast, 4 3/4" - 4 7/8" was typical in the Golden age.
Well, yes and no.
4.5" corner pockets had been in use since at least 1887 or so, from the time of the first professional continuous pool matches, and were still in use well into the 10s, 20s and 30s during Greenleaf's heyday and Mosconi's upbringing.

I do, however, believe that common bar tables, just like today, had lesser tight pockets than pro tournament tables, nonetheless, Brunswick made sure they were standardized for pro tourneys.




In the 1910s and 1920s:

" all games shall be played with 2-5/16 Empire compo-ivory balls, upon a 5x10 Brunswick-Balke-Collender company table, with 4-1/2 inch pocket openings at the corners and 4-3/4 inch pocket openings on the side. Same shall be furnished with 1845 match cushions and Brunswick special imported tournament cloth. "

It seems like if Mosconi or anyone else set a record during a major tourney pre 1949, there's a good chance it was on a 10ft table with 4.5" pockets.

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08-29-2014, 09:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
And Mosconi or Crane never ran 11 racks of 9 ball (or 15, or whatever the accepted high record is). See how silly that argument sounds?

Here are some facts that you conveniently ignored:

-Nobody plays straight pool any more (and haven't for 40+ years), and the few that do play it very little. Just like Crane and Mosconi played relatively little 9 ball and it wouldn't be fair to say how crappy they were based on the fact that their highest 9 ball runs aren't even a third of what the highest 9 balls runs of today are.

-Ten foots tables are rarely played today and in fact hardly even exist anywhere (and they were even more non-existent until a couple of years ago). Nobody has much playing time on them. But 10 foots were readily available for all of Cranes career and were even the primary table for a big part of it.

-The ten foot tables back in Crane's time had pockets that were significantly easier than the pockets of today. This is due both to the way they were cut, as well as the larger pocket sizes. It is even conceivable that some of the tough Diamond 9 footers of today are more difficult to make runs on than the 10 ft that Crane set his personal best on. And it is absolutely certain that the Diamond 10 footers of today are many orders of magnitude tougher than the ten foots back then.

-You are comparing a few hours of high run attempts at the Derby by today's players (on much tougher equipment no less) against Cranes best run of 70+ years. I don't know of anyone that would argue that it is reasonable to believe that a few hours of effort is going to be enough to surpass the very best that someone else was able to put up in 70 years, even setting aside the fact that they were trying on a much tougher table.

There is no straight pool record that couldn't be beat by one or more of today's players. These records have stood (and will continue to stand) solely because it isn't worth the effort to break them. This is for all practical purposes a dead game and there just isn't much benefit or any real value to be gained to offset the great effort that would be required. If straight pool had remained the dominant game for all of this time, all of these records would have been broken several times over.

And for the record, it is conceivable that Crane and Mosconi could have broken their own records. While they had tons more incentive to break them than today's players do, they likely didn't feel the incentive back then was worth all that much effort either. Their records were set because straight pool is almost solely what they practiced and played, and they practiced and played it a lot. If today's players and players all along were practicing and playing straight pool like that then those records would probably have been broken incidentally (probably several times over) without having even specifically set out to break them.

The best evidence that today's players could break the straight pool records of old are two things:

-In the nearly 100% of the million other skills that can be definitively quantified and measured, humans are better at them now than they were 60-70+ years ago. This is true in sports or any other skill of any kind. There is no reason for pool to be a lone exception.

-Better feats of skill, even in straight pool, have already been done by modern players. Anybody that doesn't think a run of 491 (or any run over 400 for that matter) on a 9 ft is a better feat requiring more skill than a 526 on an 8 ft with buckets is just out of their mind, literally. Like absolutely looney bin crazy. A 309 on a 10 ft with generous pockets similarly probably fails to meet the standard of a 491 or 400+ on a tougher 9 ft.
You need to research a few things.

Luther Lassiter's record for most consecutive 9 ball racks run

How long the 2013 DCC 14.1 challenge lasted - hint - it was more than a few hours.

The conditions and equipment players faced in the 1930's and 1940's when Crane and Mosconi had their 14.1 300 ball runs on a 10 foot table.

What Crane thought of tables with big pockets.

It is easy to dismiss guys who aren't around to prove otherwise.
  
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08-29-2014, 09:07 PM

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Originally Posted by cleary View Post
btw, Mosconi's famous 526 was on a 8' table with very large pockets. Put up $5million prize and it will be beat, on video, within a year on a similar table.
Did Mosconi get to count his practice runs? I prefer John Schmidt's idea, where a table would be available at a set of tournaments. Players would be charged per attempt. Money collected would increase a fund that would be paid to the whomever breaks the record.

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08-29-2014, 09:24 PM

Get a big prize it will be broken in a short time if by no one other than the chineese. They got skills for sure and we do not know the depth of the quantity of people playing pool in China/Tiawan. There are also great players in the USA and Eaurope who could do the the same like I said if there was a large prize. I do not expect such a prize to materialize anytime soon.

That being said I think the 526 will be beaten within 10 years on video because the game is being played more and talked about more and while it might not be a a mainstay tourney game with lots of events. I feel many of the elite players are practicing the game and can put out the 100+ run on the current tough equipment. I have the score sheets for DCC many of the elite players are running a 100 once or more in a single ticket at the Derby. Ralph ran 2 great numbers this year in less than a single ticket he did not take all his innings. Players are running balls on tough equipment, not sure they are great 14.1 players the strategy of today's players would probably not hold up to players of old but as far as running balls even on tough equipment today's players are at a high level.

People talk about Mosconi and his greatness. I wish I had seen him play, i did not. I have seen some video but all i have seen is either trick shots or stuff from later in his career no good video of him in his prime in actual competition. Without doubt he was great and his run 526 on whatever table was great actually super awesome. But that was the game of the day and he was actually paid a very good salary to tour around run pool balls, he wanted to run a 100 in each of his appearances and almost invariably he came with the run usually stopping at a 100 and going over to his trick shot show.

Now if we paid Neils or Ralph or John S a similiar wage probably $5k+/week these days I think they would all be able to come with a daily 100 pretty much on command, similiar to Mosconi. Just my opinion I think Mosconi was a very elite player head and shoulders above the players of his day plain to see from his tourney record he crushed players in long events pure dominance. But notice he did not play short sessions the super long format guaranteed the best to win. He was the best of his era. Not all players were allowed to play, It was invitational and short fields. We have the opposite today large field if you got the entry you can play. Rotation games to a short number 7,9, 11 whatever the best is not guaranteed to win any race or any event. Mosconi in a match to 1000 points was pretty safe and he put together a record of dominance. He has the highest recognized run. I know he was the real deal and he would have loved the modern equipment, all of the great players from back in the day would have loved this new equipment. They knew alot and did not share the knowledge like people do today. We have lessons, books, DVD's Youtube etc. People today play great and we have a lot less players there was pool room on every corner back then not so much today.

I think the 526 will be beaten and sooner than most think. Myself I will accept any run on video as being a new record no matter if the BCA or WPA or whoever recognizes it. Video will be proof enough for me.

Personally I wish Marop would get some fresh cloth and get John S to play 5-6 hours a day for 2,3 or 4 months on his Metro 9' table. I think the 526 could potentially be done by John if he decided to focus on it for a couple of months or more. I have seen him rain 100's like water on very tough equipment. Marops table is looser than a DCC Diamond so a lot more true straight pool shots can be played. I think John would very easily be 100+ every day (multiple times every day), 200+ every week and 350+ every month. Just my opinion would not take long for John to run a huge number. He has no reason to dedicate himself to such an effort but if he wanted it he could run that number and more.

If John doesn't do it himself that record will be beaten by someone from Euope or South East Asia and mark my words it will be done on video and sooner than you think and i say that because it is being practiced and videoed more than it being played as competition. More 14.1 is played today than 10 tears ago the game has returned I travel quite a bit and I see it played in pool rooms, practiced and taught. We have alot of that to thank Mr Bob Jewett and Greg Sullivan for the DCC event since then a few other events emulate that event. Bob spent alot of his own money sponsoring the high run event and Greg/Diamond along with others since then has stepped up to sponsor the DCC high run event and playoff tourney. Such an event will be the impetus of the practicing player who will eventually run the big number and hopefully it will be caught on video for all to see. I think it would be great for it to happen at the DCC or perhaps one of the other high run events lending that "official status" to the run. I do not expect that as the equipment at the Derby is usually pretty tough. All of those DCC 100+ runs are truly worthy of respect.

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08-29-2014, 09:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleary View Post
btw, Mosconi's famous 526 was on a 8' table with very large pockets. Put up $5million prize and it will be beat, on video, within a year on a similar table.
I think 10K would do it.

I've always thought running 300+ on a 10-footer was much more impressive than running 500+ on an 8-footer.


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Mosconi's number
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Mosconi's number - 08-29-2014, 10:03 PM

Willie ran 34 consecutive fifteen ball racks without a scratch, without getting an unplayable shot, without a miss. That eight foot table made the first two things tougher, not easier.

I strongly suspect that had everything else been the same except that Willie was shooting on the table used in today's challenge, with today's balls, air conditioning, and all the other amenities, his record run would be much higher than it was on the eight footer.

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08-29-2014, 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alstl View Post
Mosconi didn't get paid any extra to run 526, he just did it on a whim.
He was being paid by Brunswick to do exhibitions and travel around. His game was 14.1, hardly anyone plays that anymore. All I'm saying is put up the cash and you'll see it.
  
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08-29-2014, 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
Right. What value could anyone possibly find in being the man who broke the 526.

Lou Figueroa
As several others and myself have already pointed out, not much monetary value, that's for sure. So they could sell a couple of thousand dollars worth of DVD's maybe, big wup. To set the record they would have to buy an 8 ft table (which will probably cost as much as they would make in DVD sales), and have it set up with similar bucket pockets. They would have to buy one or two video cameras if they don't already have them. And you can't just play perfect to get the high run record, you have to get crazy lucky with all the rolls too so they would have to be willing to go into it planning for the possibility that it may take months of 40 hour weeks to break this thing. And they have to make sure they are video taping every second of every moment at the table, making sure every run is caught non stop with no camera interruptions.

Or, instead they could be out playing golf, or doing whatever else they enjoy doing. And when they do want to play or practice, they could have most of their practice time be focused where it might actually help them win what little money there is in pool today. They would want to play on 9 ft tables, probably diamonds, because that will give them the most benefit towards today's tournaments since that is what they are mostly played on. And they would probably want to primarily play 10 ball or 9 ball, because that is what most of the tournaments are in and practicing the same game you are playing in tournaments will obviously be most beneficial for those tournaments. And if they wanted to mix it up, they would probably play one pocket since that is what the second most tournaments are in, and because that is one of the primary games they can find action in. The last thing they would want to be playing or that would give them any benefit is straight pool (extinct game) on an 8 ft table (used in zero tournaments and not enough challenge to do them much good) with bucket pockets (again no tournaments with bucket pockets and not enough challenge to do them much good).

So they could spend all that time, money, and effort trying to break a record in a game that has been dead for decades, to maybe make a couple of grand if they are lucky, or they could go play golf or do something enjoyable or when they are actually playing and practicing they could do it in games and on equipment where it might actually help them in the modern day events as opposed to wasting time playing a game that has been about extinct for decades on a table size that is used in zero tournaments and with bucket pockets that are used in zero tournaments and are a joke and do them little good for sharpening their skills. The decision not to pursue the record isn't rocket science. But if it ever is made worth their while, you will see how quickly it gets broken.
  
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08-30-2014, 12:03 AM

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Originally Posted by leto1776 View Post
one could easily argue that the extra size and slow cloth more than makes up for the tighter pockets, fast cloth, and better cushion rubber of the 9' tables of today. Bis size difference between a 10x5 and a 9x4 1/2
There is nobody that is above a C level player that has ever played a game of straight pool and who has an IQ above 30 who could argue that a 526 on an 8 ft table with bucket pockets is as hard of a run as a 491 run made on a 9 ft table.

Anybody that can run a 491 on a 9 ft can certainly get a run of 36 more balls on smaller, easier equipment with bigger pockets. Tougher runs (the 491 being one example) than Mosconi's record have already been made. If they can make a tougher run then they can certainly make an easier run. That today's top players can break the record is not even intelligently debatable (again, they have already made tougher runs!). The only thing that can even be debated is how long it would take.

A weak argument could be made for a 309 on a generous 10 ft table being a better run than a 491 on a 9 ft table, but I think it's still pretty obvious that the 491 is a better run all things considered.
  
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08-30-2014, 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cleary View Post
btw, Mosconi's famous 526 was on a 8' table with very large pockets. Put up $5million prize and it will be beat, on video, within a year on a similar table.
I think you could actually take only 1% of that amount, which would would be $50,000, and offer that amount to each of the first ten players that could break the record on video within a year, and have a legitimate chance that all ten prizes are won. I don't know what the exact odds on that happening would be, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it did happen.

For $50,000 (or maybe even less) and all you have to do is be one of the first ten to do it I think there would be some Filipino's and Taiwanese and Chinese players and a few others that would manage to learn straight pool so fast and well it would make people's head spin, and of course the current crop of top straight pool players were always going to be in the mix. You might even be able to cut the time in half to 6 months, and cut the prize in half to $25,000 to each of the first ten guys to do it and be real surprised at the result.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but Mosconi's 526 for today's top players is a lot like walking from Los Angeles to Maine. You are just about positive you could do it but you know it is going to take a lot of effort and time (and you don't even know just how much time, just that it is going to be a big time investment) and there is no way you are going to do it unless something makes it worthwhile, even though you know that you could actually do it. Being able to say "I walked across the US," as impressive as that claim would be, certainly isn't enough to make it worth it to you. There is going to have to be a good financial payoff to make it worth it.
  
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08-30-2014, 12:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alstl View Post
Mosconi didn't get paid any extra to run 526, he just did it on a whim.
No, he didn't just do it on a whim. It was his all time best ever run in 74 years of playing. You act like he walked in there and said "listen up folks, today I am going to run 526 balls" and then proceeded to do it. That day just happened to be his best run out of 74 years of efforts.
  
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