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the shots where you can't line up ...
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the shots where you can't line up ... - 10-28-2019, 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
I have a lazy left eye...so my cue is generally a bit right of center when chin on cue.

But I look first...and bring my cue to my vision...I donít look down my cue.
Iíve had some days playing snooker when my left eye was dominant..and ran 100s...
...and I canít read other than very large print with my left eye.

I suggest players should work on their hand-eye coordination....
...itís so much better than lining up...
..sorta like being in a fight...you pick a spot on the guyís chin...and hit it.

Aiming is so much more complicated than lining up...spinning involves an awareness
that sight lines canít handle...even on center ball, the object ball goes different places
at different speeds and on different cloths

Some guide lines are important to a beginner, but at some point you gotta lose the
training wheels.
.

Just wanted to voice my very strong agreement. Countless posts about stance, head alignment, eye alignment, how to aim, all good stuff when it is possible. However, when two players are of equal ability or matched up fairly it is usually a few shots that decide the winner. It is often the person that makes the butt awkward shots where you are contorted like a pretzel and your eyes are not even close to looking down the cue shaft.

"Everybody" makes the easy shots. It is who makes the tough ones that usually matters.

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10-28-2019, 10:29 AM

Knowing I'm left-eye dominant and being a right-handed, I messed with my stance for years trying to have my left eye right over the cuestick. Eventually a local pro just said, put the cuestick over your chin and your eyes will do the rest.

He was right...if that can help.


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10-28-2019, 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
So.. I am left eye dominant, and I play right-handed. I am pretty sure this is severely effecting my game, as I often struggle to know whether I am "on line" when shots get out past about 6 feet, and even if I make these balls, I often hit them slightly too thick or thin.
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!

Good luck,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 10-28-2019 at 03:50 PM.
  
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10-28-2019, 04:26 PM

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. After a lot of consideration, and reading your responses, I have come to the conclusion that I just don't practice enough, mostly due to my weight. My back hurts when I put in hours, so my wife and I are focusing on working out for now, and I am specifically working on strengthening my back/legs with squats and deadlifts.

After all, I played an recent 8 ball match in Frankfurt where I broke and ran 3 racks, and ran out two of my opponent's dry breaks, so I guess my alignment can't be terrible.

I then had another match Saturday on very slow tables, and noted that, not having the option of "easing" balls into the pockets, I was having to pay more attention to the aim line, and delivering the cue straight... And having only partial success. The main takeaway from this session is that my stroke was not that powerful, and this was what was causing inaccurate hits, not my eye position.

I usually address this with some form of bottle training, but with my back pain, I just haven't been doing it. To be clear, I don't have any issues at all with my back besides the muscle fatigue from the hanging belly, so I am trying to address that.

Thanks for your feedback.
  
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channel training - 10-28-2019, 04:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. After a lot of consideration, and reading your responses, I have come to the conclusion that I just don't practice enough, mostly due to my weight. My back hurts when I put in hours, so my wife and I are focusing on working out for now, and I am specifically working on strengthening my back/legs with squats and deadlifts.

After all, I played an recent 8 ball match in Frankfurt where I broke and ran 3 racks, and ran out two of my opponent's dry breaks, so I guess my alignment can't be terrible.

I then had another match Saturday on very slow tables, and noted that, not having the option of "easing" balls into the pockets, I was having to pay more attention to the aim line, and delivering the cue straight... And having only partial success. The main takeaway from this session is that my stroke was not that powerful, and this was what was causing inaccurate hits, not my eye position.

I usually address this with some form of bottle training, but with my back pain, I just haven't been doing it. To be clear, I don't have any issues at all with my back besides the muscle fatigue from the hanging belly, so I am trying to address that.

Thanks for your feedback.

Russ,

I think you already know it when you say "some form of bottle training" but any device that doesn't allow vertical movement in your stroke is bad. You can get a dead straight piston stroke but it serves no purpose and is far more complicated than it needs to be.

I have to admit my first thought when you said bottle training was twelve to thirty-two ounces but creating some sort of channel for the cue to pass through is probably the best option. I created a very long shaft extension once where you were forced to stroke straight from side to side and you felt less and less effort to do that as your stroke straightened Basically a cue shaft with a several foot high quality aluminum dowel added where the tip would be. The dowel was constrained by posts side to side and free to move up and down. It was a good trainer I thought. No way to make such toys now.

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10-28-2019, 05:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!

Good luck,
Dave
The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
  
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10-29-2019, 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!
The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.

Regards,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 10-29-2019 at 07:47 PM.
  
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10-29-2019, 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
...I look first...and bring my cue to my vision...I don’t look down my cue.
I do that too, but with an added final step: look first, bring cue to vision, then check/tweak to align stroke with vision. I'm trying to work my way past needing that final tweak... it's getting smaller at least.

pj <- not cross-dominant
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10-30-2019, 05:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.

Regards,
Dave
I don't see anywhere in your research that you consulted with the medical profession as I have or did any research into other sports as I have. But rather, you just keep repeating your theories over and over. My suggestion to you is to expand your research outside of your own lab and outside of cue sports and maybe you'll have a better grasp on the issue of dominant eye, and maybe you'll understand why I say that your current advice can be hurtful to players who are trying to improve.

Is it more important for you to be a creator of something than to seek out the truth, wherever it may take you, and get it right?

I will tell you right now that for many players, your solution will be short-lived and become frustrating to them over time.

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10-30-2019, 05:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!
The above is a wrong statement and dangerous to follow.
Fran,

Based on our recent discussion in another thread, I think I know where you are coming from here, but that is quite a strong statement on your part.

If I understand your view correctly, based on what you wrote in the previous thread, you seem to think that a person should position their head in a "natural" position (based on their "natural" stance), and learn to see shots right from this perspective (or make aiming adjustments as required). That way, they won't need to force themselves into an unnatural position (which might not be very effective when one is tired or nervous). You also seem to think that most people's natural position will be with the cue under or close to their dominant eye. If I mischaracterized your views, I apologize, and please correct me.

I think it is certainly possible to do this and be able to reach a high level of play; however, I don't believe it is the best (most effective) approach for most people. What comes natural is not always the best technique. As I shared before, in the past I used to position my head with the cue fairly close to my dominant eye. That came naturally to me. However, at some point I realized I was not visualizing lines of aim and cue alignments correctly. At times I would make subconscious corrections, but I would often miss long shots, even when I was aiming and stroking very carefully. Once I realized that I could visualize everything more correctly by instead positioning my head in my personal "vision center" position (with the cue more centered under my chin), I made changes in my stance to allow me to get my head in the right place. My game improved immediately as a result. I have also successfully worked with many students who have had similar issues, and they certainly would not agree with your assessment of my approach. Also, there are many top players (pool and snooker) who have a dominant eye and yet position the cue somewhere other than beneath (or close to) their dominant eye. Many (if not most) of these players have the cue centered (or very close to centered) between the eyes, with the cue touching (or almost touching) the center of their chin.

Regardless, as with all fundamentals, one can learn to master anything, even if it isn't what makes sense as the "best practice" approach. Someone mentioned Bob Jewett as an example. For his entire pool-playing life, he has positioned his head in the "wrong" place (i.e., not in his personal "vision center" position). As a result of this, he doesn't quite see the CB center or the line of the shot correctly. To compensate, he subconsciously learned to swoop his stroke slightly. Because he put in so much practice time over so many years, he has managed to master this technique fairly well. However, he agrees with me that he probably would have had a much easier journey (and maybe could have excelled even earlier and at a higher level) if he had started with his head in the right place. Then he would not have needed to subconsciously (or consciously) make aiming or stroking corrections. And he would have been able to use a perfectly straight stroke.

Again, I know our perspectives are totally different on this issue, but I think it is inappropriate (and unprofessional) for you to characterize my approach as "wrong ... and dangerous to follow." I have worked hard to research, study, practice, publish, share, and teach the "vision center" approach, and I think it has benefited many people (myself and my students included). Also, many people now use my "vision center" phrase and agree that it is one of the most important "best practice" fundamentals of pool.
I don't see anywhere in your research that you consulted with the medical profession as I have or did any research into other sports as I have. But rather, you just keep repeating your theories over and over. My suggestion to you is to expand your research outside of your own lab and maybe you'll have a better grasp on the issue of dominant eye, and maybe you'll understand why I say that your current advice can be hurtful to players who are trying to improve.
Fran,

This is obviously a "hot topic" for you, and I doubt I would be able to sway your strong opinions on the matter.

If people want to learn more about these topics and decide for themselves, I suggest reading all of the material and linked articles on the following resource pages:

dominant eye

vision center

Regards,
Dave

PS: Fran, FYI, I have read all of the articles mentioned and linked in all of the quotes on the dominant eye resource page (including the articles from the "medical profession"). You should also. I also recommend you read the article I wrote for Billiards Digest dealing with visual alignment in pool:

Aim, Align, Sight - Part II: Visual Alignment” (BD, July, 2011)

Also, Richard Kranicki's book: “Answers To A Pool Player’s Prayers” has some good thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by dr_dave; 10-30-2019 at 05:35 AM.
  
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10-30-2019, 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortBusRuss View Post
So.. I am left eye dominant, and I play right-handed. I am pretty sure this is severely effecting my game, as I often struggle to know whether I am "on line" when shots get out past about 6 feet, and even if I make these balls, I often hit them slightly too thick or thin.

I never really payed much attention to this aspect of my game, but thinking back, it might be the main reason for inconsistent results.. When I am playing a lot, I naturally correct in whatever way, whether it be tilting my head, or simply I start subconsciously using my right eye, (or both eyes) as both eyes corrected with contacts, I'd say both eyes are of about equal strength.

I did a quick search, and people have mentioned that cross dominance can possibly be corrected by wearing a patch to force use of the nondominant eye at all times. Some people automatically revert to the dominant eye as soon as the patch is removed. Also, wearing an occluded contact in the currently dominant eye has been mentioned.

I'd really like to correct this issue, and I am simply not coordinated enough to switch hands. All this came about because a relative neophyte pool player friend of mine here in Germany mentioned going to an optometrist who happened to be a pool player, who gave him a new contact lense prescription that somehow corrected his cross dominance.

I do realize everyone is different anatomically, and he might have just gotten lucky, but, considering that both my eyes are equally strong, it seems I might have other options.

Any opinions/experiences?
i've been dealing with this recently and figured i'd share my experience. I don't know what eye is dominant but i know that when i'm in line, i can look down the shaft, through the cue ball and into the spot on the object ball. if those things happen, the ball goes in.

it might help you to identify what it feels like to be lined up properly. at the very least, you'll know when you're not lined up and can stand up, reset, and try again. most of the time when i miss a shot, it's because i didn't feel right but still took the shot. i'm trying to be more conscious of what this feels like and my pocketing has gone up significantly since

i've flipped eyes in the past 6 months but what i focus on now is getting my head centered over the cue and looking straight. i found my head was pointing off to the right and i was looking left down the cue. it's possible you have a stance issue, not an eye issue
  
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10-30-2019, 09:15 AM

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Originally Posted by 8ballsNquarters View Post
it's possible you have a stance issue, not an eye issue
Good point. For some people, to get their head in the right place, a stance change might be required. For those interested, how to do this is covered in detail in the following video:

NV J.21 Ė How to Find the Perfect Pool/Snooker/Billiards Stance

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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10-31-2019, 03:44 AM

This is the video that helped me correct my stance issue.
To me it makes sense and is logical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGBFRln32uo

John


One Pocket John
St. Louis, MO.

I don't play One Pocket as much as I use to, but when I do, I play at Cue & Cushion - Overland, MO.

In Memory of Dean Higgs and Harry Sims - gone but not forgotten and thank you.
  
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Matt_24
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11-08-2019, 09:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!

Good luck,
Dave
I watched your video, and it's a perfect description of what to do. I've always been opposite eye dominant. Your video describes what those old time champions (and a lot of us) were doing naturally through years of play and natural ability. Kudos!


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dr_dave
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11-08-2019, 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_24 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
For pool, it is not important which eye might be "dominant" or not. What matters is positioning your head consistently in your personal "vision center" position. If you want to find this, check out the videos and articles here:

"vision center" resource page

Proper and consistent "vision center" alignment is the most important fundamental of pool!
I watched your video, and it's a perfect description of what to do. I've always been opposite eye dominant. Your video describes what those old time champions (and a lot of us) were doing naturally through years of play and natural ability. Kudos!
Thank you. I'm glad you like it.

Regards,
Dave
  
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