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01-26-2019, 01:03 PM

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Originally Posted by deanoc View Post
hi adam

i don't know for sure what custom is
i do know that the long stick with heavy is allowing me to punch
with results like a stroke

i posted somewhere for someone to tell me if schmidt was kinda short stroking it
or what,but no one answered

i am confused about pool strokes
Both Efren and Chohan appear to having some "loops" in there strokes, however, when shooting through they CB they know exactly where its going


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01-30-2019, 01:29 PM

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Originally Posted by ribdoner View Post
Both Efren and Chohan appear to having some "loops" in there strokes, however, when shooting through they CB they know exactly where its going
Exactly riboner! Every golfer will tell you that there are many stroke styles, whether long shots or putts, but the only thing that matters is what the club face is doing in the short strike zone when it is going through the ball. The pros are ample demonstration of the truth of that. No two alike.
  
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01-30-2019, 02:30 PM

Full disclosure: I am a student of Scott Lee and a certified SPF instructor. There are many thoughts I could share on this topic, so the following is not intended to be an exhaustive discourse.

You can absolutely be a good player with either a pendulum or a piston stroke. If you are already a world-beater who never misses and has great CB control, then you should just keep on keepin' on.

For the vast majority of us, however, consistency tends to be the thing we lack or desire the most. Consistency is the result of consistent (and hence repeatable) motion. The pendulum stroke, and SPF, are all about developing consistency and repeatability, of both the stroke and the shooting process. The ultimate goal of a pool stroke is to deliver the tip to the desired point on the cue ball, along the desired line, with the desired speed. A pendulum stroke is the simplest way to achieve this goal consistently by developing a repeatable (and measurable) stroke.

Along those lines, the only thing that truly matters is the moment of contact. Nothing you do after the tip strikes the ball can affect the outcome of the shot. So the notion of dropping the elbow to "keep a level plane" is unnecessary. In fact, the action required to do so introduces more joints and muscles. The more moving parts you have, the more that can potentially go wrong. That being said, since nothing you do after the tip strikes the cue ball can affect the outcome of the shot, then it follows that IF your elbow drop does not begin until AFTER you have struck the cue ball, then is not actually affecting the shot. Again, it is an unnecessary motion that adds physical complexity to your stroke, and it is harder to self-evaluate your stroke in that case, but under those conditions an elbow drop does not actually hurt your results.

As far as SPF (Set-Pause-Finish) goes, the pause between the backstroke and forward stroke has a purpose. Let's consider the stroke from a kinesiological standpoint. First, when you pull the cue back and then send it forward, you are changing directions (better known as "transitioning"). When you transition from moving in one direction to moving in the opposite direction, there is a moment when backward motion has ceased and forward motion has not begun. It may be extremely small, but it exists, and that moment is "the pause". What SPF does is take control of this fact and make it a deliberate part of your stroke, which enhances your control and rhythm. And we are not talking a very long time here - a half a second is plenty. Pausing also aids with the point below...

The second thing to consider is that the backstroke employs the tricep while the forward stroke employs the bicep. The pool stroke is really two motions, backward then forward. Pausing gives your brain and your body the time it needs to transition from focusing on the tricep motion to the bicep motion. When I work informally with folks, adding a short pause at the backstroke is almost always a "quick fix", and I have yet to see it fail to improve someone's shot making.

Another thought has to do with being either "process oriented" or "results oriented". Results are important, no doubt, but when evaluating, developing, and practicing the stroke, I believe in being process oriented. I would be wary of relying too heavily on whether you make a ball or not, or get position or not, when evaluating your stroke. Remember that once you strike the cue ball, you can't control the results, and there are plenty of things that can cause a shot to miss that are not the stroke's fault: choose the wrong english, or too much english, or not enough english, or fail to compensate for throw, or use the wrong speed, or simply aim poorly. My personal demon is failing to implement my full routine on an "easy" shot and missing, which is a mental lapse. Other common causes are dirty balls, excessive humidity, chalk on the cloth, poor cloth conditions, a slightly out of level table, etc. - all of which can cause a well stroked shot to miss. I'm not suggesting that it happens a lot, but the "rub of the green" is a very real thing.

Finally, most people don't have the training or knowledge to be able to self-evaluate their stroke, so the old idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps isn't particularly helpful. Spending some time with a qualified instructor can go a long way towards improving your game. I know some people don't agree, and I'm cool with that. At the end of the day, all an instructor can do is provide you with information - it's up to the student to act on it.


Joel Cochran
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01-30-2019, 02:36 PM

Joel, you could teach golf! The pause. Missing in so many strokes.
  
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01-30-2019, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by paaca View Post
Joel, you could teach golf! The pause. Missing in so many strokes.
Funny you should mention that! A lifetime ago I actually went to school in Florida to be a golf pro. Life ended up taking me in a different direction, but I learned a lot


Joel Cochran
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01-30-2019, 05:11 PM

I'm another one who would give you my two cents. I was a local instructor and I've won a few tournaments. Not big ones mind you. But I use the drill that I'm showing in the picture to make sure my cue is level on the backswing and the follow-through. Put your knuckles on the rail and drag them back and forth. That's level. I want my cue to come backwards and go forwards in the same plane and it doesn't matter what I do with my elbow. I've never hit one ball with my elbow.

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01-30-2019, 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RakRunr View Post

As far as SPF (Set-Pause-Finish) goes, the pause between the backstroke and forward stroke has a purpose. Let's consider the stroke from a kinesiological standpoint. First, when you pull the cue back and then send it forward, you are changing directions (better known as "transitioning"). When you transition from moving in one direction to moving in the opposite direction, there is a moment when backward motion has ceased and forward motion has not begun. It may be extremely small, but it exists, and that moment is "the pause". What SPF does is take control of this fact and make it a deliberate part of your stroke, which enhances your control and rhythm. And we are not talking a very long time here - a half a second is plenty. Pausing also aids with the point below...

Finally, most people don't have the training or knowledge to be able to self-evaluate their stroke, so the old idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps isn't particularly helpful. Spending some time with a qualified instructor can go a long way towards improving your game. I know some people don't agree, and I'm cool with that. At the end of the day, all an instructor can do is provide you with information - it's up to the student to act on it.
I disagree with the SPF style of stroke. I stroke back and forth and then pause when the cue stick is about 1/4" from the cue ball and then the backswing/ forward swing is a constant motion like the golf swing. The "pause" should be to verify aim and cue stick contact point. Very few golfers have ever stopped at the top. One on the tour now and Peter Jacobson. That's about it.


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01-30-2019, 09:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Prairie dog View Post
I disagree with the SPF style of stroke. I stroke back and forth and then pause when the cue stick is about 1/4" from the cue ball and then the backswing/ forward swing is a constant motion like the golf swing. The "pause" should be to verify aim and cue stick contact point. Very few golfers have ever stopped at the top. One on the tour now and Peter Jacobson. That's about it.
I would disagree on both pool and golf. While the pause may be very short, it is not a constant motion to go forward and then back. There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun. You can't do both at once, not in pool, golf, hockey, pitching a baseball, swinging a bat, darts, Jalai, or any throwing-like motion. It's like the natural pause in breathing - there is a point where you have stopped inhaling but not begun exhaling (in the military, this is when we are taught to pull the trigger). I will agree that some athletes have a very fluid transition, and a short pause/gap time, but the transition is there nonetheless. If you watch slow motion golf swings, there is a distinct pause at the top of their backswing.

I also think of SPF as the "3-pause" technique: I pause and hold as you describe to verify aim and that the cue stick is going to strike the cue ball where I want. Then I pull back and pause, then I deliver the stroke and pause in the finish position. These are all done intentionally and the same on almost every stroke.


Joel Cochran
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If you think you can't learn anything, you are probably right.

Playing cue: Predator P3, Revo 12.9
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Last edited by RakRunr; 01-31-2019 at 07:28 AM. Reason: fixed typo
  
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01-30-2019, 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RakRunr View Post
I would disagree on both pool and golf. While the pause may be very short, it is not a constant motion to go forward and then back. There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun. You can't do both at once, not in pool, golf, hockey, pitching a baseball,inging a bat, darts, Jalai, or any throwing-like motion. It's like the natural pause in breathing - there is a point where you have stopped inhaling but not begun exhaling (in the military, this is when we are taught to pull the trigger). I will agree that some athletes have a very fluid transition, and a short pause/gap time, but the transition is there nonetheless. If you watch slow motion golf swings, there is a distinct pause at the top of their backswing.

I also think of SPF as the "3-pause" technique: I pause and hold as you describe to verify aim and that the cue stick is going to strike the cue ball where I want. Then I pull back and pause, then I deliver the stroke and pause in the finish position. These are all done intentionally and the same on almost every stroke.
In golf, if we watch the top of the back swing, the shaft is bending. The club head is going back but the arms and wrists are taking it down causing the bend in the shaft. This "loads" the wrists for power. Watch almost any golfer to see this. No pause except for a couple of golfers. SPF is a style but in my opinion, not the best.


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01-31-2019, 08:50 AM

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Originally Posted by RakRunr View Post
There is a natural point where backward motion ceases and forward motion has not begun.
I'm not convinced that's actually true, but so what if it is? It has nothing to do with whether or not an extended, intentional pause is recommended. I recommend it, but this "everything pauses" mantra is meaningless to me.

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01-31-2019, 11:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I'm not convinced that's actually true, but so what if it is? It has nothing to do with whether or not an extended, intentional pause is recommended. I recommend it, but this "everything pauses" mantra is meaningless to me.

pj
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The "mantra' (not how I would describe it) is just a recognition of the physical fact that a backwards and forwards motion that changes directions has a natural point where it's condition is neither moving forward nor backward - it is in transition from one state to the next. This point is static and can be extremely short lived. If you toss a ball in the air, there is a static point at the apex where it is no longer moving up and not yet falling, even though it may appear to be in constant motion. I'm not sure how else to express it, and if I'm not conveying the concept well I will accept that as my problem. No one has to agree with me, we can still be friends

My conclusion therefore is that 1) the transition from backward to forwards exists and 2) the two motions are distinct and separate. Rather than just letting it happen and accepting the results, I advocate that we do so intentionally to control it, therefore a pause should be intentional. Whether it is "extended" would depend on how you define that. Is half a second "extended"? How about a quarter? The Masters Academy standard is 1/6ths of a second (5 frames at 30 FPS)*, which is even less, and hard to see without still frame video analysis, so I'm not suggesting anything extreme. The goal is to prevent rushing the transition so that your muscles and brain have time to process it properly. It's also about developing a very fine level of control over your stroke and your process. Everything you do in the pool stroke should be on purpose, which adds to the consistency and repeatability of the stroke.

*[If anyone is unfamiliar, this is one of the hallmarks of our program - video analysis of your stroke at the frame level. It's truly eye opening.]

You say you recommend the intentional pause - can you discuss why you do so? What do you see as the benefits?


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01-31-2019, 11:19 AM

Stroke!stroke!stroke!stroke!
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01-31-2019, 12:04 PM

I like the piston. My body told me which one to use. Just like Golf many try to force feed methods on bodies and minds that can't comprehend the info, so it becomes a struggle. Find a comfort Zone. Reyes and the like like to saw wood. Chang a piston player takes short and very few practice strokes and is now likely the best out there. I also don't like seeing the cue tip moving up and down the vertical axis.
  
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01-31-2019, 12:09 PM

Can someone post a link or video of the different types of strokes please?

Bob Jewet said he does a J Stroke. Curious what stroke I use. Not truly sure...
  
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01-31-2019, 12:56 PM

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Originally Posted by RakRunr View Post
If you toss a ball in the air, there is a static point at the apex where it is no longer moving up and not yet falling
Yeah, I'm familiar with the idea - but how do you know it's true? I suspect there's never a measurable moment where the ball isn't moving either up or down - but I don't base my stroke on that opinion.

Quote:
My conclusion therefore is that 1) the transition from backward to forwards exists and 2) the two motions are distinct and separate. Rather than just letting it happen and accepting the results, I advocate that we do so intentionally to control it, therefore a pause should be intentional.
I agree with controlling the transition, but whether or not a "pause" must exist isn't the reason - the reason for me is that the transition is a natural place to look for stroke issues and an intentional pause is a good way (at least theoretically) to eliminate that possibility. It's also the perfect time to "gather focus" for the shot.

Quote:
Is half a second "extended"? How about a quarter?
When I say "extended" I mean extended beyond whatever time you think every transition must include a "pause". In other words, any length of intentional pause.

Quote:
You say you recommend the intentional pause - can you discuss why you do so? What do you see as the benefits?
I did above, and in previous post(s). Much the same as yours, I bet.

Again, I'm not criticizing the advice to pause intentionally - obviously, since I recommend it too. I just question whether this often heard "everything pauses" is one of the good reasons for it. If others question that too it might detract from the clarity of your other good reasons for it.

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Sorry, only if you agree with everything I say.

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