WWYD -- 9 ball total trap

Bob Jewett · Sep 19, 2020

MattPoland said:
... I tried it for about 20 minutes. No video today, I’ve been reconfiguring my setup.

Hitting short of the side pocket consistently tracked short. Maybe hitting the 5 ball but more commonly hitting the 4 or 7.
...

You can change the angle off the third cushion by changing how you get there. Try varying the angle, speed and spin.

In my experience, the angles on a Valley table are different from 9-foot tournament tables, but since this is a WWYouD, your shot applies to your table.

Playing short-long-long to the right of (above) the side pocket is expected to go direct to the one ball or short. With a lot of slide (new cloth), it can go long to the 1 ball: short-long-long-short-ball. I think the tendency is to be short and you have to work to make it go longer.

MattPoland · Sep 19, 2020

I rushed my camera setup back up. I didn’t bother editing so I have 15 minutes of raw footage.

I can naturally hit the 1 from four rails trying to get a return safe. I pulled that off a handful of times.

At the end of the video I was able to hit the 1 head on with three rails and pocket the 9. To make that angle work, I had to shoot the ball hard enough to make the cueball hop around off the rails a bit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6gBDsQqCebY

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book collector · Sep 19, 2020

I would shoot the "off the point shot" from the upper right pocket and take the 9 out of the hole. You could also jump into the head rail and kick 2 rails behind the one but that's a much harder shot to perform and may not even be possible.

jimmyg · Sep 19, 2020

If all I wanted to do was disrupt the 1 - 9 combo, I probably would try banking the three cross corner into the 1 or 9 rather than masse on the cue ball. Depends on who I am playing and what the score is.

fastone371 · Sep 19, 2020

iusedtoberich said:
I'd try to move the 1 and or 9 by any means possible (taking a foul if needed). I'd fram the CB into the 6 a million miles an hour, trying to disturb the dead 1-9 combo. If no way to get the 6 to hit any of those balls, I'd try 4 rails with the CB, with the first rail being the upper right end rail as viewing the picture.

This is what I am doing too, I dont have the skills to shoot this and make a good hit without a lot of luck. If I can practice kicking at the 1 for about a half hour beforehand to find the speed, spin, route, and outcome then I go for the kick and legal hit.

alphadog · Sep 21, 2020

Bob were you testing the az crowd out or is there another reason for this post?

Tennesseejoe · Sep 21, 2020

Since the cue ball and the 6 are frozen...shoot straight thru the frozen balls aiming at about
6 inches to the right of the middle diamond on the far short rail...use right English. The cue ball will go to the far short rail and spin into the 1 ball breaking up the combination.

Black-Balled · Sep 21, 2020

Tennesseejoe said:
Since the cue ball and the 6 are frozen...shoot straight thru the frozen balls aiming at about
6 inches to the right of the middle diamond on the far short rail...use right English. The cue ball will go to the far short rail and spin into the 1 ball breaking up the combination.

Sounds like possible unsportsmanlike move...

MattPoland · Sep 21, 2020

Black-Balled said:
Sounds like possible unsportsmanlike move...

I don’t know about WPA, but BCA/CSI permits you to shoot directly through frozen balls without needing to shoot away at a 45+ degree angle or jacking up. There are high speed videos showing there is not a double hit not prolonged contact even though intuitively you’d think there was.

I’d say it appears to me that the balls are not frozen and there is a gap. You’d be intentionally fouling in that scenario in a way that would possibly be unsportsmanlike.

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Patrick Johnson · Sep 21, 2020

Tennesseejoe said:
Since the cue ball and the 6 are frozen...shoot straight thru the frozen balls aiming at about
6 inches to the right of the middle diamond on the far short rail...use right English. The cue ball will go to the far short rail and spin into the 1 ball breaking up the combination.

There's an accurate way to aim the CB through a frozen combo - Bob Jewett’s two-times-fuller frozen-cue-ball aiming system.

Here's a diagram of it for this shot (see Dr. Dave's video explanation linked above for more detail).

pj
chgo

Bob Jewett · Sep 21, 2020

Tennesseejoe said:
Since the cue ball and the 6 are frozen...shoot straight thru the frozen balls aiming at about 6 inches to the right of the middle diamond on the far short rail...use right English. The cue ball will go to the far short rail and spin into the 1 ball breaking up the combination.

Well, maybe. I was careful in the description to avoid the word "frozen". I'm not sure, but I think the referee did not declare them to be frozen. If they are frozen, it is a permitted shot. (NOTE: I did not say that it was not a foul.)

This brings up the question if the balls are not frozen: Is it allowed to intentionally play a double hit to scramble the balls? If that is allowed, how about instead in the original situation play any shot that gets the cue ball out into the open, and then while it is still rolling, take your second hit of the current shot and shoot the cue ball a second time -- while it is still rolling, but slowly -- to pocket the nine. Is that kind of double hit allowed in the game?

By "allowed" I mean a part of the game that may be a foul but is not unsportsmanlike conduct.

Clearly, my example above of a prolonged double (second) hit must not be allowed or safety play in the game becomes a farce.

If that double hit is not allowed, which double hits should be?

This question is not so far-fetched. I saw the following in a tournament. The player at the table had an excellent position with all the balls open. Sadly for him, on a warm-up stroke he nudged the cue ball, which would normally give his opponent the whole rack. In an instant he realized his mistake and took a second power stroke smashing the balls all over the table and maybe leaving a harder position. Is this smart play? Should this kind of shot be permitted at all? Let's assume for the purpose of the argument that the cue ball was still in motion when he hit it a second time.

couldnthinkof01 · Sep 21, 2020

Bob your examples are what I would consider
very unsportsmanlike.
That being said next time I am messing
around playing someone for fun the look
on their face would be excellent!

Playing one pocket you slow roll
one rail up table for a take out,
if its off a little you quickly get to the other side
and nudge it to go the right direction
and pay your ball

erhino41 · Sep 21, 2020

iusedtoberich said:
I'd try to move the 1 and or 9 by any means possible (taking a foul if needed). I'd fram the CB into the 6 a million miles an hour, trying to disturb the dead 1-9 combo. If no way to get the 6 to hit any of those balls, I'd try 4 rails with the CB, with the first rail being the upper right end rail as viewing the picture.

Thats the play. It looks like plenty of room for a natural angle to get the hit. I don't know how thin you could get the one for a natural carom. I think you'd like to get a good hit and maybe roll through and hope it clips that nine.

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erhino41 · Sep 21, 2020

All this discussion of double hitting through the ball, you could just bank the three down wrecking ball style two rails under the one and the nine. No need to worry about any talk of unsportsmanlike conduct, a clean intentional foul is not unsportsmanlike. Looking at it again I'd try the one rail route with the three.

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Bob Jewett · Sep 21, 2020

erhino41 said:
All this discussion of double hitting through the ball, you could just bank the three down wrecking ball style two rails under the one and the nine. No need to worry about any talk of unsportsmanlike conduct, a clean intentional foul is not unsportsmanlike. Looking at it again I'd try the one rail route with the three.

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I think the unsportsmanlike aspect is good to throw into the discussion. Many players don't understand that some "shots" are simply not permitted. Another way to get out of the trap, which has been reported as actually happening, is to use the 1 ball as your cue ball and simply shoot the 9 ball straight into the pocket

MattPoland · Sep 21, 2020

Bob Jewett said:
I think the unsportsmanlike aspect is good to throw into the discussion. Many players don't understand that some "shots" are simply not permitted. Another way to get out of the trap, which has been reported as actually happening, is to use the 1 ball as your cue ball and simply shoot the 9 ball straight into the pocket

I brought up that kind of scenario once before. I think you mentioned that by WPA rules that falls under unsportsmanlike conduct “6.17 (b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;” because directly stroking an object ball is not considered a shot.

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Island Drive · Sep 21, 2020

Tight on the 6 hummmm....I'd probably bank the three/red ball next to the cue ball and rearrange the corner balls, I call it ''mid rack break shot''....I know I'll probably lose this game, BUT disturbing the nine ball, or banking the 3 and making the 9, will require my opponent to run out. No one runs out 100% of the time, this would be my choice.

Poolplaya9 · Sep 21, 2020

Patrick Johnson said:
There's an accurate way to aim the CB through a frozen combo - Bob Jewett’s two-times-fuller frozen-cue-ball aiming system.

Here's a diagram of it for this shot (see Dr. Dave's video explanation linked above for more detail).

pj
chgo

View attachment 558139

Shouldn't the "90° to target" line" be based off of (perpendicular to) the "two times fuller aim line" rather than the "CB/OB line of centers" line or am I thinking about this incorrectly? Even if that were the case I would probably keep the diagram and explanation exactly as you have it for purposes of simplicity of explanation and ease of visualization for the masses since it probably wouldn't make enough practical difference to be worth adding the additional confusion. Mostly just curious because unless I am just remembering what I do incorrectly I am pretty sure I always visualize it based off the "two times fuller aim line" since that is what intuitively seems correct to me here.

straightline · Sep 21, 2020

Poolplaya9 said:
Shouldn't the "90° to target" line" be based off of (perpendicular to) the "two times fuller aim line" rather than the "CB/OB line of centers" line or am I thinking about this incorrectly? Even if that were the case I would probably keep the diagram and explanation exactly as you have it for purposes of simplicity of explanation and ease of visualization for the masses since it probably wouldn't make enough practical difference to be worth adding the additional confusion. Mostly just curious because unless I am just remembering what I do incorrectly I am pretty sure I always visualize it based off the "two times fuller aim line" since that is what intuitively seems correct to me here.

Regardless of the specific apex of bisection, the actual cue ball path is force related. Since the cue ball is momentarily sandwiched, low res factors like stroke and grip can now become functional. IOW you still gotta cinch these.

Bob Jewett · Sep 21, 2020

straightline said:
Regardless of the specific apex of bisection, the actual cue ball path is force related. Since the cue ball is momentarily sandwiched, low res factors like stroke and grip can now become functional. IOW you still gotta cinch these.

To the extent that I understand what you just said, I believe it is false. The action when the cue ball is frozen to the object ball is about as immune to grip as a normal (free cue ball) shot.

WWYD -- 9 ball total trap

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