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alstl
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08-26-2020, 12:34 PM

A member of this forum had his team disqualified at the APA national tournament over handicap problems.

The rationale I heard made no sense. I'm not sure the APA understands their own system. It's designed to attract casual players. That's the only thing for certain.
  
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08-26-2020, 01:39 PM

While the subject of APA hcps has been beaten to death in other threads, there is one thing I have noticed recently. If you are a SL 7 in our league, you can have a losing record against SL5s and 6s (over the last 5 sessions) and a winning % of less than 20 against other 7s and your hcp will not drop. Someone please explain to me how you can be a SL7 if you can’t win at least 50% of your matches against other 7s. There really is that big a difference in skill in the scenario I just stated.
  
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08-26-2020, 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Palmer View Post

Here's what Dr. Dave has on APA handicaps, it's a good read.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/...apa-equalizer/
The quote/post from jayman only holds true if your league operator is honest and/or smart enough to use the system properly.

I'll give you an example of what I personally witnessed: In an 8-ball league I played in several years ago we played a team in week three that had two men that were rated SL2's. Both of them were new to the APA.

After they both won their matches against my teammates that night, and both shooting like SL4's, I did some research when I got home. One of the players had a record of 1-1 before playing us, and the other had only played one match and lost. I kept asking myself how a male player could start out as a SL3, go 1-1 in his first two matches and be a SL2.

By the end of the session, both had winning records and were still both SL2's. It was the middle of the next session before they both went up to SL3's. In two sessions, nobody on my team ever beat either one of them.

I should mention that a few years prior to that 8-ball session, my 9-ball team was playing a team of all "new to the APA" players. It was around the fourth week of the session and their first night of play. They had a man that was a SL2 that won his match fairly handily as did a couple others on their team did. I asked the other team's Captain after the night's matches were over how come their skill levels were so low and she proceeded to tell me the LO made them a deal that if their team joined the league to have an even amount of teams (eliminating the bye), that he would give them lower starting handicaps so that their team might have a chance to catch up in the points race. I kept that info in my memory bank and from that point on, I never gave a rat's ass about what anybody's handicap was anymore....just showed up and did the best I could regardless.

I can go on and on with stories about this LO's shady dealings....but I digress. Suffice to say that this man was dishonest and pandering to say the least. I started playing in his league 14 years ago and today he is still the LO. I have since moved to another league area (for my sanity).

Point being, the system only works if everything is done "by the book".

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Chili Palmer
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08-26-2020, 02:52 PM

Agreed, it only works if it's being handled appropriately. Luckily, our LO is about as good as it gets. We have some complaints of sandbagging but honestly, the people who are being accused of sandbagging probably don't have the skills or knowledge to do so and the people doing the finger pointing couldn't spot a hustle if they were told about it.

LOL, ironically, the worst case of initial SL when entering the league was for me. When I contacted her I told her I would probably end up as an 7 or 8 in 9B and I was put on as a 4? Not being used to sanctioned leagues I just went with it. I was on her team and the first night and game I played the guy broke dry and I ran them out, she walked over and said "Well done, you're now a 5". After 14 years away it took about 6 months to move up to the 7/9, either way, I feel I should've been put in as a 5, 6, maybe a 7.

Honestly, I'm much like you, I don't really care if someone wants to sandbag, I'll play them the same way I play everyone else, they're the ones who have to sleep with themselves at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniac View Post
The quote/post from jayman only holds true if your league operator is honest and/or smart enough to use the system properly.

I'll give you an example of what I personally witnessed: In an 8-ball league I played in several years ago we played a team in week three that had two men that were rated SL2's. Both of them were new to the APA.

After they both won their matches against my teammates that night, and both shooting like SL4's, I did some research when I got home. One of the players had a record of 1-1 before playing us, and the other had only played one match and lost. I kept asking myself how a male player could start out as a SL3, go 1-1 in his first two matches and be a SL2.

By the end of the session, both had winning records and were still both SL2's. It was the middle of the next session before they both went up to SL3's. In two sessions, nobody on my team ever beat either one of them.

I should mention that a few years prior to that 8-ball session, my 9-ball team was playing a team of all "new to the APA" players. It was around the fourth week of the session and their first night of play. They had a man that was a SL2 that won his match fairly handily as did a couple others on their team did. I asked the other team's Captain after the night's matches were over how come their skill levels were so low and she proceeded to tell me the LO made them a deal that if their team joined the league to have an even amount of teams (eliminating the bye), that he would give them lower starting handicaps so that their team might have a chance to catch up in the points race. I kept that info in my memory bank and from that point on, I never gave a rat's ass about what anybody's handicap was anymore....just showed up and did the best I could regardless.

I can go on and on with stories about this LO's shady dealings....but I digress. Suffice to say that this man was dishonest and pandering to say the least. I started playing in his league 14 years ago and today he is still the LO. I have since moved to another league area (for my sanity).

Point being, the system only works if everything is done "by the book".

Maniac


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08-26-2020, 03:27 PM

[QUOTE=Chili Palmer;6733035]APA handicaps utilize the best 10 of the last 20 games and innings are a huge part of that equation, that is why it's important to mark defenses, because it shows the person didn't actually miss a shot to end his inning.

And yes, slop can and does affect player ratings if it affects his wins and/or innings. As mentioned, it's the 10 best of your last 20 games. Well, if you slop your way to wins then your skill level should go up due to less innings, more wins, and less defensive shots.

Our local slop master has bounced between a 6 and 7 a few times, he can pocket some balls when needed but he's no 7. He can't control whitey and generally can't get out of any tough situations.

Here's what Dr. Dave has on APA handicaps, it's a good read.



Its been a while since i read that chart...thanks for the link.


I fall in the parameters all the way across that chart.

Fargo rate 490 from playing usapl. Apa 5 in 8 ball and 6 in 9 ball and was a 7 in bcapl.. Spot on all the way across actually..i totally agree with gour post chili.. Slop or luck prolongs your time at the table. The longer you are at the table the greater odds of you winnng. Also the longer you are at the table the less innngs you play..

It was not my intemtion to downplay the boys achievement of reaching skill level 6. Now i know an apa 6 is not exactly a world beater but its the second highesf level you can attain in apa 8 ball. Just my opinion here of course but when you reach that level you should be some what proficient at cue ball control...position play and pattern selection with out having to resort to smash and hope every third or fourth shot.

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08-26-2020, 03:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chili Palmer View Post
APA handicaps utilize the best 10 of the last 20 games and innings are a huge part of that equation, that is why it's important to mark defenses, because it shows the person didn't actually miss a shot to end his inning.

And yes, slop can and does affect player ratings if it affects his wins and/or innings. As mentioned, it's the 10 best of your last 20 games. Well, if you slop your way to wins then your skill level should go up due to less innings, more wins, and less defensive shots.

Our local slop master has bounced between a 6 and 7 a few times, he can pocket some balls when needed but he's no 7. He can't control whitey and generally can't get out of any tough situations.

Here's what Dr. Dave has on APA handicaps, it's a good read.
I've asked politely for Dave to take part of that page down. The system was illegally disclosed a long time ago, and lawyers intervened. I reposted that initial post without realizing what it was, and got calls from the APA immediately. Someone else reposted my post, and my frickin' email ended up on whatever was submitted to further lawyers, and I got more phone calls. My hope was that with Usenet difficulty to search anymore, remnants of that illegal posting would disappear in the bit bin.

The original poster doesn't need more headaches, and neither do I. I'm hoping it just all goes away.


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08-26-2020, 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nullus View Post
Well, first of all you're talking about handicaps within a specific organization. Therefore, whether slop has any bearing on a handicap is irrelevant, because everyone who plays APA has a handicap calculated in the same way.

Based on what I know of how their handicaps are calculated (having ran a league for nearly a decade), there is no amount of slop that would be so forthcoming as to cause any single player's handicap to elevate any worse than anyone else's. What you're describing honestly sounds more like a personal issue that you have with someone else's handicap comparative to yours.

All of that said, APA handicaps are calculated going back only so many matches, and without giving away too many details, there is an element based on wins/losses and assigned values, regardless of how many actual innings there were in a specific match. It's all designed to continually raise and/or elevate an individual's handicap over time, thereby causing teams to have to split, and form new teams, in the hopes of keeping the league ever-growing. It's a business model, make no mistake about it. All of it also focuses and places more value on those lower level, and most often, new players, whom are needed to fit under the handicap limit within the league. It doesn't matter how much someone sandbags, at some point, if they successfully win by sandbagging, it's going to catch up to them and their handicap will go up.

Slop...sandbagging...none of it matters. Your teammate and everyone else will eventually go up. Don't chastise him for being overhandicapped. If you're so knowledgeable about the game, and think he could be a better six, then try to help him become a better one, rather than tell him he's sloppy and shouldn't be one. Just my two cents.
I actuallh congratulated him upon being raised. Sorry if my post led you to believe otherwise but the subject of what he needed to do to improve did come up..

When he was a 4 he would call time out and ask advice whenever he was in a pickle..when he became a 5 he hardly ever asked my advice. Now thst he is a 6 said he could kick my ass do you really think he wants my advice lol.. Dont get me wrong...he is a great kid and i call him son.

Not tooting my own horn and definitely not making excuses but i was a 6 in 8 ball 5 years ago for a couple sessions.. Since then ...like the saying goes...i don't see the shots like i used to due to failing eyesight. Some times i know i hit it wromg as soon as i strike the cue ball. Also i hardly ever make a ball on the break due to not breaking as hard as i used to due to an injury that left me 29% disabled in my shooting hand. How accurate do you think you can be when your hand some times starts aching lkmwe a bad toothache?

Last but not least..one thing i learned back then...if you dont run out you sell out...depending on your opponent of course.. So while my style of play has changed and it seems like i will be stuck as a 5 as i am getting older i havent forgotten what it took to attain a level 6 and it darn sure was not a smash and hope every third or fourth shot.
  
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08-26-2020, 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I've asked politely for Dave to take part of that page down. The system was illegally disclosed a long time ago, and lawyers intervened. I reposted that initial post without realizing what it was, and got calls from the APA immediately. Someone else reposted my post, and my frickin' email ended up on whatever was submitted to further lawyers, and I got more phone calls. My hope was that with Usenet difficulty to search anymore, remnants of that illegal posting would disappear in the bit bin.

The original poster doesn't need more headaches, and neither do I. I'm hoping it just all goes away.
I did not know that, I have removed the link from my post.


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08-26-2020, 06:39 PM

I deleted the link from my post also
  
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08-27-2020, 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
I've asked politely for Dave to take part of that page down. The system was illegally disclosed a long time ago, and lawyers intervened. I reposted that initial post without realizing what it was, and got calls from the APA immediately. Someone else reposted my post, and my frickin' email ended up on whatever was submitted to further lawyers, and I got more phone calls. My hope was that with Usenet difficulty to search anymore, remnants of that illegal posting would disappear in the bit bin.

The original poster doesn't need more headaches, and neither do I. I'm hoping it just all goes away.
I had a copy of that stuff years ago, printed out. It was interesting to me, at the time, being new to pool and to APA and all. After many years of experience in the league, I realize that things certainly must have changed since then.

I'm sorry that you got caught up in it.


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