Tighter pockets

CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have a Brunswick 8 foot glenwood that has cavernous pockets
Is there a way to tighten them a bit without it being visually noticed
 

Ipmtim

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Subscribed, as I need to recover the table I just picked up, this would be the time to tighten things up.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Silver Member
I have a Brunswick 8 foot glenwood that has cavernous pockets
Is there a way to tighten them a bit without it being visually noticed

Have a mechanic remove old cushions, do proper subrail extensions, add new cushions, new facings and rail cloth, BAM, done.


Trent from Toledo
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a Brunswick 8 foot glenwood that has cavernous pockets
Is there a way to tighten them a bit without it being visually noticed

I have yet to see a 5” Pocket shimmed to 4.5” without it being noticeable. Some are better than others. I had a GC4 that was shimmed to 4.5 and it was done pretty well but it played funny trying those tight 1P banks. For 8&9 ball it was fine.
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As Trent pointed out, the proper way to tighten the pockets is to add wood to the subrail, cut the new pocket opening, install new cushions, facings and cloth. If you simply stack facings a.k.a. "shim" the pockets, they will play dead.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
OK....Not Saying This Logic Works But Here Goes.....

If the shim (one piece) is double the thickness, would they have to be twice as hard?
Could that compensate?
So....Duro of 50 for a normal shim, but twice the thickness use Duro 100.


Before you all shoot me.....

I don't think it is a linear difference that see-saws values.
If that was true...a triple thick shim (one piece) would have to be Duro 150?


To the OP....when you say the pockets are cavernous.....
What is the measurement of the opening?
IMHO...5” Pockets are the best for real world playing.
 
Last edited:

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The facings are harder than the cushions. Stacking them up increases the area around the pocket that is harder than the cushion. When the ball hits this area it will not rebound that same as it does when it strikes the cushion. Hence, a dead spot. Make sense?
 
Last edited:

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
OK then reverse the thought....

Double thick shim (one piece) half as hard.
Duro 25 (If normal shim is Duro 50).

Triple thick shim (one piece) 1/3 as hard.
Duro 12.5?

Not saying this works but if a two piece, double shimmed Pocket plays ”dead” then the softer, double thick, but one piece, lower Duro number shim should be more bouncy?
 
Last edited:

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK then reverse the thought....

Double thick shim (one piece) half as hard.
Dura 25 (If normal shim is Dura 50).

Triple thick shim (one piece) 1/3 as hard.
Dura 12.5?

Not saying this works but if a two piece, double shimmed Pocket plays ”dead” then the softer, double thick, but one piece, lower Dura number shim should be more bouncy?

A standard facing is 60 durometer. The facing serves a purpose and is harder than the cushion by design. If the facing surface has too much rebound it will spit balls out like crazy. There is only one proper way to tighten up pockets and stacking facings isn't it regardless of how soft/hard they are. Don't you think if your theory were plausible it would be in practice? Stack away but the table won't play right. If you want to tighten the pockets you have to extend the subrails and install new rubber. There's no shortcut.
 
Last edited:

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
I am not saying to “stack” the shims.
I feel that stacking does not work because there is no mechanical connection between the two shims and energy is lost.

I am speculating that if I double/triple the thickness of the shim, but use one piece....

A: Leave the Duro at “60”. Should be same rebound?
B: Change the Duro to a Harder/Softer Duro to compensate?

You could setup a “drop test” to measure the rebound using.....
A: Standard Thickness Shim, 60 Duro
B: Double Thickness, 60 Duro
C: Triple Thickness, 60 Duro

I would think all should rebound the same?

If the rebound is not the same then you could measure the adjustment/compensation by using a softer/harder piece of shim with a different Duro number.

Example: 20% less rebound, then use a 20% harder piece.

Again....I think you should get the same rebound effect from all thickness’s of the material using the same Duro Number.

BTW....some very respected Mechanics on here advocate using Duro 50 for their shim material.

I acknowledge that using thicker shims is not the true correct way, because extended rails and cushions have the tips of the cushions in the correct place in the pocket, effecting play at the entrance to the pocket.
 
Last edited:

CESSNA10

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
OK....Not Saying This Logic Works But Here Goes.....

If the shim (one piece) is double the thickness, would they have to be twice as hard?
Could that compensate?
So....Duro of 50 for a normal shim, but twice the thickness use Duro 100.


Before you all shoot me.....

I don't think it is a linear difference that see-saws values.
If that was true...a triple thick shim (one piece) would have to be Duro 150?


To the OP....when you say the pockets are cavernous.....
What is the measurement of the opening?
IMHO...5” Pockets are the best for real world playing.

corners are 5 1/8th and sides are 5 3/4
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
corners are 5 1/8th and sides are 5 3/4

Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say. That doesn’t mean that your table shimmed to 4.5” won’t be good for you to play on at home. It’s just that any ball that hits the shim won’t react the same as rail rubber.
 

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say. That doesn’t mean that your table shimmed to 4.5” won’t be good for you to play on at home. It’s just that any ball that hits the shim won’t react the same as rail rubber.

Yes, in other words, the pocket points themselves, if struck by a ball, play a bit inconsistent and unpredictable. Shots that are actually played into a pocket point will be guess work at best.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Those measurements are Point to Point?

Here’s a video on measuring a pocket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG9CqK95U2E

BCA Equipment Specs (Yes, We Know Tour Specs Are Tighter)

POCKET OPENINGS & MEASUREMENTS (cloth-covered rails):

Pockets openings are measured from tip to tip of the opposing cushion noses where direction changes into the pocket. This is called the mouth.

Corner Pocket: Mouth 4 7/8” minimum to 5 1/8” maximum
Side Pocket: Mouth 5 3/8” minimum to 5 5/8” maximum

The angle at the corner pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 142o (± 1o).
The angle at the side pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 103o (± 2o).

Vertical Pocket Angle: 12o minimum to 15o maximum

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other where the nose of the cushion changes direction to the center of the vertical cut of the slate pocket radius.

Corner Pocket: 1 5/8” minimum to 1 7/8” maximum
Side Pocket: 0” minimum to 3/8” maximum

Drop Point Slate Radius: The pocket radius measured from the vertical cut of the slate to the playing surface.

Drop Point Slate Radius: 1/8” radius minimum to 1⁄4” radius minimum


WPA Tour Specs

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]

Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]

*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket."
 

Attachments

  • 6B732018-E493-47A4-9BCC-AEC84ACB2793.jpeg
    6B732018-E493-47A4-9BCC-AEC84ACB2793.jpeg
    20.2 KB · Views: 392
Last edited:

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say.

I never said it would play the same.
In fact if you read my reply I state that having the Cushion Points in the proper place after a rail extension is the “correct” way.

I also said that “stacking” shims is wrong, because the two pieces are not Mechanically Connected, causing loss of energy, making a pocket play dead.

Using a thicker, single piece of the same Duro Number neoprene shim material should give you more “acceptable” results, then stacking.


To Stack, Is To Hack!
 
Last edited:

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am not saying to “stack” the shims.
I feel that stacking does not work because there is no mechanical connection between the two shims and energy is lost.

I am speculating that if I double/triple the thickness of the shim, but use one piece....

A: Leave the Duro at “60”. Should be same rebound?
B: Change the Duro to a Harder/Softer Duro to compensate?

You could setup a “drop test” to measure the rebound using.....
A: Standard Thickness Shim, 60 Duro
B: Double Thickness, 60 Duro
C: Triple Thickness, 60 Duro

I would think all should rebound the same?

If the rebound is not the same then you could measure the adjustment/compensation by using a softer/harder piece of shim with a different Duro number.

Example: 20% less rebound, then use a 20% harder piece.

Again....I think you should get the same rebound effect from all thickness’s of the material using the same Duro Number.

BTW....some very respected Mechanics on here advocate using Duro 50 for their shim material.

I acknowledge that using thicker shims is not the true correct way, because extended rails and cushions have the tips of the cushions in the correct place in the pocket, effecting play at the entrance to the pocket.

I give up. Try it out on your table and report back the results.
 
Top