Billiard University (BU) playing-ability-exam scores and ratings

Fatboy

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
Dr Dave, with all due respect, you are not an A player. Your score indicates you are A-. I think almost any true A player would be willing to bet the 9 ball ghost race to 10 on a daily basis, and get the cash more times than not on a standard loose pocket GC 9' table. A players are the best in the local rooms that are "player's rooms" not banger rooms. A players are favored to win several matches and maybe cash in regional events, like Joss tour stops. A players might win a match or two at a national level event like the US Open, or the DCC, if they play well.

Again, no disrespect to you, but if you played the 9 ball ghost I don't think you would win more than 1 game in a race to 10. Me either for that matter. If you entered a Joss event, you might not win 5 games in a double elimination tournament.

I played an entire year every single tour stop of the Tim Scruggs tour event in the early 2000's. This event had pretty much the exact same players as the Joss events do, for reference. I played in maybe 20 tournaments, and never one a single match. THe closest I came was hill hill wiht a guy that I gambled even with all the time. (we were both C+/B- players).

The ratings you have are incorrect. "A" player has a specific meaning. It means someone who can REALLY play, in a "Player's" room.

I stand by my opinion that the ratings are at minimum 1 letter scale off. If you can honestly look in the mirror and call yourself an A player, then so be it. But if you cna't call yourself an A player, then why give yourself an A- rating in the testing?

Again, this is not meant to call you out personally and your playing ability. Just using you as a comparison, since you know your game best, and how you match up with locals in your area and also the TOP guys in your area.


B player = Wont beat the 9 ball ghost, unless a VERY high B that is a great shotmaker. Might win a few matches in a regional Joss event if they get a good draw. Most likely will never cash in a Joss event.

A player = can beat the 9 ball ghost on loose 9' table. Will often cash in a regional Joss event. He's the best player in the local "player's" rooms.

Open player = wins or places high in regional events like Joss stops when the touring pros don't fill the field. He might cash in a national event if he gets a good draw, but will never win one. He's the best player in a region.

Pro = the national level guys that travel on a national level, and win or place high in those events (DCC, US Open, etc)

Top Pro = the international level guys that win or place high in international events (Shane, Efren, Corey, etc)
Click to expand...


i dont disagree with this,

however on a Barbox I sure play much better than a GC with 4" pockets.

which leads me to the question how do we compare apples to apples. the 9B ghost is nothing on a BB and difficult on a 4" GC for me. and lots of guys right around my speed.

equipment is a factor that should be considered, some how ???:confused::confused:
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Earlier today, I met with 12squared (Dave Gross) and administered the BU exams. Dave is among the top players in northern Colorado. He is an excellent one-pocket player, very good at 9-ball, and was very competitive in 3-cushion billiards in the past.

He did the exams on a 9' Brunswick Gold Crown III with 4 7/8" pockets (with 1 1/2" shelf). He hadn't practiced the exams very much before this session, so he has an excuse for doing poorly on some of the drills.

Here are his scores:
Exam I: 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 14 + 14 = 70 (barely qualified for the Doctorate Exam II)
Exam II: 5 + 15 + 14 + 12 +10 + 6 + 1 + 5 + 0 + 3 = 71
Total = 70 + 71 = 141 (1 point above the Doctorate cut off)

That's right ... he can't jump ... or not good enough for the Doctorate-level jump test (which is challenging).

This was an official examination, so he received a Doctorate diploma and is also now on the official BU alumni list.

Here is the updated list of AZB scores:
dr_dave said:
List of AZB'ers who have taken the BU playing-ability exams so far (in ranked order):

BU score, Username, BU Rating, Video links (if available):

160, Gerry Williams, semi-pro (A++/AAA), Exam I (part 1, part 2), Exam II
141, 12squared (Dave Gross), adv-3 (A+/AA), no videos (see AZB post)
141, Neil, adv-3 (A+/AA), Exam (part 1, part 2), Exam II (part 1, part 2, part 3)
135, dr_dave, adv-2 (A), Exam I, Exam II
132, Gerry Williams, adv-2 (A), Table Setup, Exam I, Exam II (part 1, part 2)
132, BRussell, adv-2 (A), Exam I, Exam II
124, JC, adv-1 (A-), Table Specs, Exam 1, Exam 2
112, RobMan, adv-1 (A-), no videos (see AZB post)
78, iusedtoberich, int-2 (B), Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
77, SeanChamp, int-2 (B), no videos (see AZB post)

Here are the details and scores for all official BU graduates.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, Dave (or is it "Dr. Dave" now?),
Dean Dave
 
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RobMan

RobMan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
One issue with the A-D system is that people interpret it differently in different parts of the country, and in different pool halls, and in different league systems. Also, some people use A/B/C/D, and others use AAA/AA/A/B/C/D. I prefer the latter since that seems to be the most common system in the league organizations. The differences in these scales might explain some of the disagreement on the BU scale, because the BU Rating Comparisons are based on the AAA/AA/A/B/C/D system and not the A/B/C/D system. Does anybody have any input or suggestions on this matter?

If the BU rating system catches on over time, maybe people will use their BU Score to identify their playing ability. Then everybody will understand and have a clear and common scale and reference, free from qualitative interpretations.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...


I agree that people certainly interpret rating systems differently. I was thinking of the AAA/AA/A/B/C/D system when I stated I was a B ... Low A if playing strong. My history of running the 10 ball rating and nine ball rating that is linked on your site, puts me pretty solidly in B. In addition, Fargo drills do as well.

The difference is I generally play these games and can recover when out of line. But certainly not always. The number of broken runs due to bad position play hurts me. So, these drills have certainly underlined my need to work on this part of the game.

Again, this is good stuff. I also agree with iusetoberich about the rhythm. I play pretty quick and the score keeping and ball set up break that a bit.
 
Fatboy

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Earlier today, I met with 12squared (Dave Gross) and administered the BU exams. Dave is among the top players in northern Colorado. He is an excellent one-pocket player, very good at 9-ball, and was very competitive in 3-cushion billiards in the past.

He did the exams on a 9' Brunswick Gold Crown III with 4 7/8" pockets (with 1 1/2" shelf). He hadn't practiced the exams very much before this session, so he has an excuse for doing poorly on some of the drills.

Here are his scores:
Exam I: 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 14 + 14 = 70 (barely qualified for the Doctorate Exam II)
Exam II: 5 + 15 + 14 + 12 +10 + 6 + 1 + 5 + 0 + 3 = 71
Total = 70 + 71 = 141 (1 point above the Doctorate cut off)

That's right ... he can't jump ... or not good enough for the Doctorate-level jump test (which is challenging).

This was an official examination, so he received a Doctorate diploma and is also now on the official BU alumni list.

Here is the updated list of AZB scores:


Congratulations, Dave (or is it "Dr. Dave" now?),
Dean Dave
Click to expand...

he plays good thats for sure
 
12squared

12squared

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Earlier today, I met with 12squared (Dave Gross) and administered the BU exams. Dave is among the top players in northern Colorado. He is an excellent one-pocket player, very good at 9-ball, and was very competitive in 3-cushion billiards in the past.

He did the exams on a 9' Brunswick Gold Crown III with 4 7/8" pockets (with 1 1/2" shelf). He hadn't practiced the exams very much before this session, so he has an excuse for doing poorly on some of the drills.

Here are his scores:
Exam I: 10 + 8 + 6 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 14 + 14 = 70 (barely qualified for the Doctorate Exam II)
Exam II: 5 + 15 + 14 + 12 +10 + 6 + 1 + 5 + 0 + 3 = 71
Total = 70 + 71 = 141 (1 point above the Doctorate cut off)

That's right ... he can't jump ... or not good enough for the Doctorate-level jump test (which is challenging).

This was an official examination, so he received a Doctorate diploma and is also now on the official BU alumni list.

Here is the updated list of AZB scores:


Congratulations, Dave (or is it "Dr. Dave" now?),
Dean Dave
Click to expand...

Dr. Dean Dave,

Thanks for your time earlier today. I know I could do better but I probably will not try - after all I already squeaked by to get the lowest possible doctorate. Just like when I went to school a zillion years ago, squeaking by with as little work as possible, it's what I do :).

Although I have never been a drill person, here's what I learned:

I cut the ball better in one direction than the other (never knew that) and I certainly need to learn how to jump. (I own a jump cue but it was in my locker and not available to me during this exam, so I tried using a strange one to me from Dr. Dean Dave). Also, things as simple as the stop shot, draw and follow drills and the line of 10 balls drill should be a snap for me...so I thought until I took the exam. :eek: I know I could have done much better on the exams, but I don't have the patience for it and I'm a doctor, so whatever.

I think there are so many useful drills that make up these exams that I would urge everyone to try it. It's kind of eye opening and if you want to improve your game, this would be a structured way to do so. I'm just too old and only like to play once a week, but if I ever did feel like getting back into it, this is one tool set I would use for sure. One more thing, I only made 1 out the 7 banks, but I feel if I were playing a game of one pocket I would have made at least 3 of them and had all but one hanging in the pocket. Eye opening for sure.

Anyway, thanks Dr. Dean Dave for making my mother proud, she finally has a doctor in the family!!! :eek::thumbup:

Cheers,
Dr. Dave
 
Last edited:
row21097

row21097

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fundemental practice run

Dr Dave

I just completed a practice run of the fundamentals exam and I scored better than expected:

F1: 08
F2: 06
F3: 08 (I got in trouble with this and shot myself down to 2)
F4: 06
F5: 04 (what bothers me about this is the “4” spot is easier than 3 or 2)
F6: 08
F7: 10 (missed the 1’st spot twice!!!!)
F8: 11

Total = 61

Played on a 4 ½ X 9” Lehmacher with 4.5 inch pockets Simonis 760 shelf = 1.25”

I will try to submit a video next week.

Bert
 
iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
What do you mean? The links on the list seem to be working properly. Or are you referring to a 2nd attempt at the exam?

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

I don't know how it happened, but the prior link works on the re-uploaded file. So all the links are still good. I only did the tests once thus far, I just had to re-upload the file as it got stuck in the middle.

Thanks.
 
JayKidd

JayKidd

Grammatically Challenged
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
I'm sorry for the errors. FYI, I've removed you from the list until you post a complete score (Exam I + Exam II). I also promise to get your user name correct the next time.

Wow ... Estonia ... that's cool!

Thank you for helping to spread the word about my stuff. Please also encourage fellow Estonian pool players to try the BU Exams.

I look forward to seeing and posting your score (and videos if available) when you are done with Exam II.

Catch you later,
Dave
Click to expand...

Actually, I have translated the exams into Chinese and have posted on a popular forum. The feedbacks are most positive, and each instructions have been downloaded more than 100 times already. Your system is catching on.
 
JC

JC

Coos Cues
Ok I changed my mind, I got bored and here's my vids. Sorry but I had to edit out the paper fumbling to set up the drills for the sake of humanity on the masters exam. I understand this is not cool if I want a diploma but I intend to get a doctorate if any later. I had not looked at nor practiced them yet at this time so that took a while. I was surprised to see that no one thus far at any level broke better than I did in this exam:smile:

Table Specs

Exam 1

Exam 2

JC
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
iusedtoberich said:
dr_dave said:
One issue with the A-D system is that people interpret it differently in different parts of the country, and in different pool halls, and in different league systems. Also, some people use A/B/C/D, and others use AAA/AA/A/B/C/D. I prefer the latter since that seems to be the most common system in the league organizations. The differences in these scales might explain some of the disagreement on the BU scale, because the BU Rating Comparisons are based on the AAA/AA/A/B/C/D system and not the A/B/C/D system. Does anybody have any input or suggestions on this matter?

If the BU rating system catches on over time, maybe people will use their BU Score to identify their playing ability. Then everybody will understand and have a clear and common scale and reference, free from qualitative interpretations.
Click to expand...
Dr Dave, with all due respect, you are not an A player.
Click to expand...
I never claimed I was.

iusedtoberich said:
Your score indicates you are A-.
Click to expand...
Actually, my score was a 132, and according to the current version of the BU Rating Comparison Chart, that corresponds to a rating of adv-2, which is designated as "A" (not "A-"). However, that was on an 8' table with fairly "generous" pockets. Also, the "A" in the chart is on the "AAA/AA/A/B/C/D" scale, and the score ranges on the chart probably need some tweaking as we get more data in. Also, people define "A" in different ways. Anyway, I still don't claim to be an "A" player (although, that's my classification in my league system in tournament play). I think I'm probably a "B" under typical old-school definitions of A/B/C/D, but I'm not sure.

iusedtoberich said:
Again, no disrespect to you, but if you played the 9 ball ghost I don't think you would win more than 1 game in a race to 10.
Click to expand...
For kicks, I decided to hit 20 racks of 9-ball, using standard "playing the ghost" rules. Thank you for indirectly encouraging me to do this. It was good practice. Again, I did this on my home 8' table with "generous" pockets. I kept detailed notes of what happened on each rack, but here is the executive summary:
- made ball on break in 14 of 20 racks (1 ball: 7 times; 2 balls: 6 times; 3 balls: 1 time)
- scratched on break twice
- ran out 9 of the 20 racks (with ball in hand after the break)
- 4 of the misses were fairly easy shots, the other 7 were fairly tough shots resulting from poor position play. All of the racks were reasonably runnable.

Bottom line: I'm probably not as bad as you make me out to be, especially on an 8' table with "generous" pockets.

iusedtoberich said:
The ratings you have are incorrect. "A" player has a specific meaning. It means someone who can REALLY play, in a "Player's" room.
Click to expand...
Under that definition of "A," I think you are correct.

iusedtoberich said:
I stand by my opinion that the ratings are at minimum 1 letter scale off.
Click to expand...
Again, I think you are probably right. But again, an "A" player according to the common league-system designations (with AA, AAA, and pro levels above "A") is different from a "Player's Room" gamblers "A" designation. Maybe I should put both scales on the Rating Comparison Chart and provide definitions of each.

Thanks for the input,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Fatboy said:
i dont disagree with this,

however on a Barbox I sure play much better than a GC with 4" pockets.

which leads me to the question how do we compare apples to apples. the 9B ghost is nothing on a BB and difficult on a 4" GC for me. and lots of guys right around my speed.

equipment is a factor that should be considered, some how ???:confused::confused:
Click to expand...
Excellent point. We handle this in the BU system two ways:
- A Doctorate diploma cannot be earned unless both exams are taken on a 9' or larger table.
- Table information and pocket geometry are reported with the BU score so there is "context" to go along with the score (see the official list of graduates to see how the scores are reported).

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
RobMan said:
I agree that people certainly interpret rating systems differently. I was thinking of the AAA/AA/A/B/C/D system when I stated I was a B ... Low A if playing strong. My history of running the 10 ball rating and nine ball rating that is linked on your site, puts me pretty solidly in B. In addition, Fargo drills do as well.

The difference is I generally play these games and can recover when out of line. But certainly not always. The number of broken runs due to bad position play hurts me. So, these drills have certainly underlined my need to work on this part of the game.

Again, this is good stuff. I also agree with iusetoberich about the rhythm. I play pretty quick and the score keeping and ball set up break that a bit.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. I think it is clear that I probably need to adjust the ranges or designations slightly to bring them more in line with traditional A-D interpretations. I also agree that the JT 10-ball "playing the ghost" scale seems to be fairly accurate. Maybe I'll test some of my BU subjects with this system to help calibrate the rating comparison chart.

Thank you to everybody for the input.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
12squared said:
Dr. Dean Dave,

Thanks for your time earlier today. I know I could do better but I probably will not try - after all I already squeaked by to get the lowest possible doctorate. Just like when I went to school a zillion years ago, squeaking by with as little work as possible, it's what I do :).

Although I have never been a drill person, here's what I learned:

I cut the ball better in one direction than the other (never knew that) and I certainly need to learn how to jump. (I own a jump cue but it was in my locker and not available to me during this exam, so I tried using a strange one to me from Dr. Dean Dave). Also, things as simple as the stop shot, draw and follow drills and the line of 10 balls drill should be a snap for me...so I thought until I took the exam. :eek: I know I could have done much better on the exams, but I don't have the patience for it and I'm a doctor, so whatever.

I think there are so many useful drills that make up these exams that I would urge everyone to try it. It's kind of eye opening and if you want to improve your game, this would be a structured way to do so. I'm just too old and only like to play once a week, but if I ever did feel like getting back into it, this is one tool set I would use for sure. One more thing, I only made 1 out the 7 banks, but I feel if I were playing a game of one pocket I would have made at least 3 of them and had all but one hanging in the pocket. Eye opening for sure.

Anyway, thanks Dr. Dean Dave for making my mother proud, she finally has a doctor in the family!!! :eek::thumbup:

Cheers,
Dr. Dave
Click to expand...
Dave,

I'm glad you liked the exam experience in hindsight. You didn't seem to enjoy it very much when you were missing those easy cut shots and banks you would normally nail when playing one-pocket for money. ;)

I'm glad you squeaked by to the get the Doctorate. That lack of jumping skill almost got you, but your strength in other areas pulled you through.

I think you are right ... I'm sure you could do much better on the exams with some dedicated practice. I also agree with you that you probably won't do this (practice with dedication toward a higher diploma). :sorry::grin:

Catch you later,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
row21097 said:
Dr Dave

I just completed a practice run of the fundamentals exam and I scored better than expected:

F1: 08
F2: 06
F3: 08 (I got in trouble with this and shot myself down to 2)
F4: 06
F5: 04 (what bothers me about this is the “4” spot is easier than 3 or 2)
F6: 08
F7: 10 (missed the 1’st spot twice!!!!)
F8: 11

Total = 61

Played on a 4 ½ X 9” Lehmacher with 4.5 inch pockets Simonis 760 shelf = 1.25”

I will try to submit a video next week.

Bert
Click to expand...
When you submit your final results and video, please do it as a reply to your "Exam I" message so I will have all of the data in one place.

Good luck on Exam II! I look forward to seeing your final results and videos.

Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
JayKidd said:
Actually, I have translated the exams into Chinese and have posted on a popular forum. The feedbacks are most positive, and each instructions have been downloaded more than 100 times already. Your system is catching on.
Click to expand...
Thank you for doing that.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
JC said:
Ok I changed my mind, I got bored and here's my vids. Sorry but I had to edit out the paper fumbling to set up the drills for the sake of humanity on the masters exam. I understand this is not cool if I want a diploma but I intend to get a doctorate if any later. I had not looked at nor practiced them yet at this time so that took a while. I was surprised to see that no one thus far at any level broke better than I did in this exam:smile:

Table Specs

Exam 1

Exam 2

JC
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting these. FYI, I've added your video links to the list at the top of the thread. Here's what we have so far:

dr_dave said:
List of AZB'ers who have taken the BU playing-ability exams so far (in ranked order):

BU score, Username, BU Rating, Video links (if available):

160, Gerry Williams, semi-pro (A++/AAA), Exam I (part 1, part 2), Exam II
141, 12squared (Dave Gross), adv-3 (A+/AA), no videos (see AZB post)
141, Neil, adv-3 (A+/AA), Exam (part 1, part 2), Exam II (part 1, part 2, part 3)
135, dr_dave, adv-2 (A), Exam I, Exam II
132, Gerry Williams, adv-2 (A), Table Setup, Exam I, Exam II (part 1, part 2)
132, BRussell, adv-2 (A), Exam I, Exam II
124, JC, adv-1 (A-), Table Specs, Exam 1, Exam 2
112, RobMan, adv-1 (A-), no videos (see AZB post)
78, iusedtoberich, int-2 (B), Table Specs, Exam I, Exam II
77, SeanChamp, int-2 (B), no videos (see AZB post)

Here are the details and scores for all official BU graduates.
Click to expand...

Good luck working toward the Doctorate. I hope the process helps your game.

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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