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cleary
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06-15-2017, 09:59 AM

The first few safeties are fine, if you're playing a weak player. I would probably fire at the bank if I'm winning in the set but if I'm down or it's close, I might leave them a bank.

The kicking shots are kind of silly, you'd have much more control just hitting the ball.
  
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06-15-2017, 11:59 AM

Not the best not the worst, but the links in the thread were fun to watch again. I remember seeing those videos a while ago and they are funny now as then. Reminds me of PoolKillers instructional for amateur players if you guys remember that work of art LOL


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06-15-2017, 12:33 PM

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Originally Posted by hang-the-9 View Post
... Reminds me of PoolKillers instructional for amateur players if you guys remember that work of art LOL
I have nearly perfected his RAM shot. I just need to find one or two more pool halls that will still let me in.
  
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06-15-2017, 12:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Tony_in_MD View Post
Awesome! I'm going to send this link to all of my opponents.

Wow.


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06-15-2017, 01:24 PM

Actually, THIS is the Worst instruction....

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cleary
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06-15-2017, 01:32 PM

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Originally Posted by Cornerman View Post
It's not the worst instructional, but he's not doing the intemediate players the good that he thinks. Players looking to improve will lose more games than winning with much of his approach. We get where he's going, but I think his overall message might be misguided.
Just depends on what level the player is and who they're playing. Anything B speed or below, you'll probably win more games than lose by playing safe in this situation. The odds a lower skilled player making a bank under pressure are probably 50/50 at best. But the worst is to bank into a corner pocket and leave them a hanger...

Playing a strong player, I'm gonna be aggressive and bank it myself because their odds are better than 50/50 to bank the ball.
  
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06-15-2017, 02:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Luxury View Post
The concept that anyone that bad at making the shot would ever practice those ridiculous safeties is why I gave it The warning I did


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This sums it up just right. If the player doesn't have a decent chance to make the ball, what makes them think they can play one of these safeties well enough to control BOTH balls?
  
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06-16-2017, 10:14 AM

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Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Actually, THIS is the Worst instruction....

Attachment 461660
Oh man.... if only.

What a great player.

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cleary
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06-16-2017, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by easy-e View Post
This sums it up just right. If the player doesn't have a decent chance to make the ball, what makes them think they can play one of these safeties well enough to control BOTH balls?
The margin of error is much smaller to bank a ball in. If I can bank a ball anywhere on the foot rail vs into a 4.5" hole, I'll have better chance at the rail. Against a weaker or even player, I've won many games that I shouldn't have like this.
  
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06-16-2017, 01:40 PM

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Originally Posted by cleary View Post
The margin of error is much smaller to bank a ball in. If I can bank a ball anywhere on the foot rail vs into a 4.5" hole, I'll have better chance at the rail. Against a weaker or even player, I've won many games that I shouldn't have like this.
Wayne Gretzsky said "You miss 100% of the shots you don't go for."

When you play a safety, two things can happen, usually....
...you can get the safety, or you can sell it out.

When you go for the bank, three things can happen, usually...
...you can make it, you can sell it out, or you can get a safety...
...I like the 2 to 1 in my favor....so I often go for it.

Sometimes when you go for a shot, you find you're better at it than you thought...
...if you never go for them, you'll never know.


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  (#41)
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06-16-2017, 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Wayne Gretzsky said "You miss 100% of the shots you don't go for."

When you play a safety, two things can happen, usually....
...you can get the safety, or you can sell it out.

When you go for the bank, three things can happen, usually...
...you can make it, you can sell it out, or you can get a safety...
...I like the 2 to 1 in my favor....so I often go for it.

Sometimes when you go for a shot, you find you're better at it than you thought...
...if you never go for them, you'll never know.
You analysis is assuming that your odds for getting safe or selling out are the same in the case where you choose to play the safety, and it is also assuming that your odds for making the ball, selling out, or getting accidentally safe are all the same in the case where you choose to go for the shot. They are not. To look at it in such an overly simplistic and obviously erroneous manner will lead to making the wrong choice a large portion of the time, possibly even more often than you will end up making the right choice.

The odds for the two or three things are never the same, and are typically not anywhere even close to the same. They are also different for every single shot/situation you face and must be assessed independently for that particular situation. They also will vary based on the particular strengths and weaknesses of the person shooting and so the best choice for a situation can sometimes be different depending on who it is that is doing the shooting. The proper choice can also vary based on how strong or weak your opponent plays, or based on their particular strengths and weakness as well (their ability to bank, their speed control, their shot making ability, etc).

The ability to properly play the odds is absolutely essential to ever becoming a very good player. The ability to properly assess the correct odds is obviously required in order to ever be able to properly play them. The ability to properly assess the odds requires always making a concerted effort to assess them and then learning from your mistakes and getting better at it over time as opposed to relying on overly simplistic and grossly inaccurate rules of thumb as outlined in your post.

Last edited by Poolplaya9; 06-16-2017 at 05:56 PM.
  
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06-16-2017, 06:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
You analysis is assuming that your odds for getting safe or selling out are the same in the case where you choose to play the safety, and it is also assuming that your odds for making the ball, selling out, or getting accidentally safe are all the same in the case where you choose to go for the shot. They are not. To look at it in such an overly simplistic and obviously erroneous manner will lead to making the wrong choice a large portion of the time, possibly even more often than you will end up making the right choice.

The odds for the two or three things are never the same, and are typically not anywhere even close to the same. They are also different for every single shot/situation you face and must be assessed independently for that particular situation. They also will vary based on the particular strengths and weaknesses of the person shooting and so the best choice for a situation can sometimes be different depending on who it is that is doing the shooting. The proper choice can also vary based on how strong or weak your opponent plays, or based on their particular strengths and weakness as well (their ability to bank, their speed control, their shot making ability, etc).

The ability to properly play the odds is absolutely essential to ever becoming a very good player. The ability to properly assess the correct odds is obviously required in order to ever be able to properly play them. The ability to properly assess the odds requires always making a concerted effort to assess them and then learning from your mistakes and getting better at it over time as opposed to relying on overly simplistic and grossly inaccurate rules of thumb as outlined in your post.
Good points and I agree. I think working on safety play is just as important as the other ingredients it takes to become a complete player. How many times do we have a shot at making the OB but zero chance of getting on the next ball because of obstructing balls, angles, distances, etc. The thinking at that time should be; "why would I want to make this ball? Let's trade it for a shot I like better" and then play a dynamite safety. Someone that is super strong in the safety play should never have to shoot a shot where the odds are not at least 60-70% that he can make it and continue.


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06-16-2017, 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
You analysis is assuming that your odds for getting safe or selling out are the same in the case where you choose to play the safety, and it is also assuming that your odds for making the ball, selling out, or getting accidentally safe are all the same in the case where you choose to go for the shot. They are not. To look at it in such an overly simplistic and obviously erroneous manner will lead to making the wrong choice a large portion of the time, possibly even more often than you will end up making the right choice.

The odds for the two or three things are never the same, and are typically not anywhere even close to the same. They are also different for every single shot/situation you face and must be assessed independently for that particular situation. They also will vary based on the particular strengths and weaknesses of the person shooting and so the best choice for a situation can sometimes be different depending on who it is that is doing the shooting. The proper choice can also vary based on how strong or weak your opponent plays, or based on their particular strengths and weakness as well (their ability to bank, their speed control, their shot making ability, etc).

The ability to properly play the odds is absolutely essential to ever becoming a very good player. The ability to properly assess the correct odds is obviously required in order to ever be able to properly play them. The ability to properly assess the odds requires always making a concerted effort to assess them and then learning from your mistakes and getting better at it over time as opposed to relying on overly simplistic and grossly inaccurate rules of thumb as outlined in your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by denwhit View Post
Good points and I agree. I think working on safety play is just as important as the other ingredients it takes to become a complete player. How many times do we have a shot at making the OB but zero chance of getting on the next ball because of obstructing balls, angles, distances, etc. The thinking at that time should be; "why would I want to make this ball? Let's trade it for a shot I like better" and then play a dynamite safety. Someone that is super strong in the safety play should never have to shoot a shot where the odds are not at least 60-70% that he can make it and continue.
Little bit of my experience here.
I played a lot of snooker when I was younger....my record at gambling and tournament
play when giving up big spots was extremely good if my opponent was safety oriented.
....many never took a win, tournament or gambling.
The ones that could beat me went for shots the others didn't go for.

I took a lot of wins off people I was giving so much weight to, if they had smacked the
pack I would've eventually had to quit them....but they would play safe instead.

What I'm really stressing here is....if you're trying to become a better player....
...go for more shots.


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06-16-2017, 07:04 PM

https://youtu.be/xzb4YonBgqY?t=98

He leaves that shot a couple times and the bank back up table to the pocket near the cue ball is like stealing. The shot is left with some frequency.
  
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06-16-2017, 07:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Little bit of my experience here.
I played a lot of snooker when I was younger....my record at gambling and tournament
play when giving up big spots was extremely good if my opponent was safety oriented.
....many never took a win, tournament or gambling.
The ones that could beat me went for shots the others didn't go for.

I took a lot of wins off people I was giving so much weight to, if they had smacked the
pack I would've eventually had to quit them....but they would play safe instead.

What I'm really stressing here is....if you're trying to become a better player....
...go for more shots.
You are normally a good poster so I am not sure how you got this one so wrong. I am guessing that you are unintentionally just selectively noticing, remembering, and keying in on the type of shots where somebody would have been better off going for a shot than playing safe for whatever the reason (possibly because that is a pet peeve of yours but who know?). Kind of the way that the people that say (and actually believe) "I never get any rolls and my opponents always get all the rolls and the disparity isn't even remotely close" are just unintentionally but selectively noticing, remembering and keying in on all the good rolls that their opponents get because they are hyper aware of and sensitive to them and then also failing to recognize and notice and remember all the ones that they get.

Obviously situations where somebody would have been better served by going for the shot do happen, and they happen with some regularity, but the reality is that there are more people that are too aggressive and would benefit from better decision making and strategy and some good safety play than there are those who would benefit from going for more shots. So if anything the tendency is for more people to be more aggressive more often than they actually should have, and the worse the player the more this tends to hold true so I think if you want to try to have broad sweeping advice for everyone (which is a often a horrible idea and definitely is on this topic) you actually have it backwards.

Regardless of which actually happens more often though, as said before, the ONLY thing that makes any sense whatsoever as broad advice intended for everyone is to accurately assess the odds for a given situation, every single time, taking into consideration your own strengths and weaknesses as well as your opponents, and then make your decision based on the best odds with all things considered. Any broad and sweeping and overly simplistic rules of thumb that are intended to be for everybody such as "you should go for more shots to be a better player" or "you should play more safeties to be a better player" are horrible, inaccurate and counterproductive. Assess and then correctly play the odds for every single situation.
  
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