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Need a ruling here, Bob J please chime in - 11-12-2019, 10:14 AM

I was playing a game the other day with no ref involved since it was a social game.

I attempted to play a safety by thinning the rack and sending the cueball up table, in doing so i sent the CB up table and it never touched the rail, but it did come to rest in the pocket. My opponent, weather it was deliberate or non deliberate went to touch the ball but in doing so he pushed the ball to the rail and hit and held it onto the rail.

Is this some sort of a different foul, maybe an unsportsmanlike foul at -15. some people i spoke with said yes that this was the case and the violator must rebreak as well after taking the -15.

What is the correct ruling here ?

**** As a sidenote: If so what would be the case if the player does the same thing pushing the ball into a cluster by holding his tip on the ball til they pushed the ball where they want it ?

Thanks in advance.


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11-12-2019, 01:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekur1 View Post
I was playing a game the other day with no ref involved since it was a social game.

I attempted to play a safety by thinning the rack and sending the cueball up table, in doing so i sent the CB up table and it never touched the rail, but it did come to rest in the pocket. My opponent, weather it was deliberate or non deliberate went to touch the ball but in doing so he pushed the ball to the rail and hit and held it onto the rail.

Is this some sort of a different foul, maybe an unsportsmanlike foul at -15. some people i spoke with said yes that this was the case and the violator must rebreak as well after taking the -15.

What is the correct ruling here ?

**** As a sidenote: If so what would be the case if the player does the same thing pushing the ball into a cluster by holding his tip on the ball til they pushed the ball where they want it ?

Thanks in advance.
That kind of corner hook, which is assumed to be intentional unless the player is a really good actor, is not an allowed stroke. It is treated the same as if he had pushed the cue ball to the corner hook with his hand. It is unsportsmanlike conduct and is up to the officials to decide how to treat it. Unfortunately, the WSR are not perfectly clear on this. I think the BCAPL rules are, but I think they also specify a penaltly.

-1 and -15 and an opening break shot is a reasonable penalty in a tournament. In your friendly game it seems that your opponent might not have known the rule. I would explain the rule and then put the cue ball back where it was, since it can be restored pretty closely, and have him try again without other penalty.

As for the sidenote, that is a tricky issue. In the old days you would often see players in the middle of a safety exchange with a full rack press softly on the cue ball moving it about a ball into the rack. An extreme form of this would be to press/push the cue ball in a ways, take a right turn and go a little farther so that there is no direct route to a cushion and it's almost certain to be a double hit or a ball foul. I've never seen the extreme shot, but I've seen lots of the push-in intentionals. I haven't seen any recently.

I'm in favor of a rule that makes intentional double hits and other kinds of ball manipulation explicitly unsportsmanlike conduct. The current WSR are not clear on this, I think.


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11-12-2019, 02:48 PM

Thanks a bunch Sir.

I was concerned to know the ruling here in case this ever came up in one of my league games.

You’re a great help and a great man.

Thanks again
Steve


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11-13-2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
That kind of corner hook, which is assumed to be intentional unless the player is a really good actor, is not an allowed stroke. It is treated the same as if he had pushed the cue ball to the corner hook with his hand. It is unsportsmanlike conduct and is up to the officials to decide how to treat it. Unfortunately, the WSR are not perfectly clear on this. I think the BCAPL rules are, but I think they also specify a penaltly.

-1 and -15 and an opening break shot is a reasonable penalty in a tournament. In your friendly game it seems that your opponent might not have known the rule. I would explain the rule and then put the cue ball back where it was, since it can be restored pretty closely, and have him try again without other penalty.

As for the sidenote, that is a tricky issue. In the old days you would often see players in the middle of a safety exchange with a full rack press softly on the cue ball moving it about a ball into the rack. An extreme form of this would be to press/push the cue ball in a ways, take a right turn and go a little farther so that there is no direct route to a cushion and it's almost certain to be a double hit or a ball foul. I've never seen the extreme shot, but I've seen lots of the push-in intentionals. I haven't seen any recently.

I'm in favor of a rule that makes intentional double hits and other kinds of ball manipulation explicitly unsportsmanlike conduct. The current WSR are not clear on this, I think.
I agree 100% with this. In friendly play (or among novices), lesson learned and restore position. In all other circumstances, this should be a serious foul.


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11-13-2019, 07:26 PM

The difference between a ‘push’ and a ‘stroke’ can be quite subtle. If the shooter is actually attempting a legitimate stroke, and technically executes a push shot, though unintentionally (clumsiness), wouldn’t the justified penalty be merely a -1 point foul? Or should the history surrounding this issue automatically assume a player’s malignant intention?
  
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11-13-2019, 07:46 PM

really need film, sounds like someone taught opponent a "Cheap Trick"
I wouldn't want to be him, he'll probably carry it for the rest of his life, there's no telling what else is up his sleeve.

Knowing a cheap trick and practicing a cheap trick are 2 very different things.


  
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11-13-2019, 08:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
The difference between a ‘push’ and a ‘stroke’ can be quite subtle. If the shooter is actually attempting a legitimate stroke, and technically executes a push shot, though unintentionally (clumsiness), wouldn’t the justified penalty be merely a -1 point foul? Or should the history surrounding this issue automatically assume a player’s malignant intention?
Suppose the rack is still nearly intact and the cue ball is close to the side. Say the cue ball is 1/2 mm away from the nearest ball -- about the thickness of a credit card. The player shoots softly towards that ball and the cue ball is pushed into the rack for about half a ball diameter. The safety for the other player is now very, very difficult and maybe he is already on one.

I would have to conclude for most players that this would be intentional manipulation of the position by an intentional double hit. If that's allowed, then why not my "push the cue ball into the middle of the rack until it is frozen to five balls" shot?

This is not an easy foul to call especially since the tradition has allowed some amount of pushing/double hits as perfectly normal.

When you are in the middle of a formal match and this topic has not been discussed in a players' meeting, and the shot comes up, there's a problem. If we imagine there's a ref, the ref should be silent until the shot is played or the player asks for a rules clarification. Should the opponent say something?


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11-14-2019, 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Suppose the rack is still nearly intact and the cue ball is close to the side. Say the cue ball is 1/2 mm away from the nearest ball -- about the thickness of a credit card. The player shoots softly towards that ball and the cue ball is pushed into the rack for about half a ball diameter. The safety for the other player is now very, very difficult and maybe he is already on one.

I would have to conclude for most players that this would be intentional manipulation of the position by an intentional double hit. If that's allowed, then why not my "push the cue ball into the middle of the rack until it is frozen to five balls" shot?

This is not an easy foul to call especially since the tradition has allowed some amount of pushing/double hits as perfectly normal.

When you are in the middle of a formal match and this topic has not been discussed in a players' meeting, and the shot comes up, there's a problem. If we imagine there's a ref, the ref should be silent until the shot is played or the player asks for a rules clarification. Should the opponent say something?
I totally agree with this.

Also i've been saying for a very long time, once a ref is called in to watch a shot or to make a ruling it can no longer be disputed. as a player you've now waived that right by getting the ref involved.


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11-14-2019, 11:16 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Suppose the rack is still nearly intact and the cue ball is close to the side. Say the cue ball is 1/2 mm away from the nearest ball -- about the thickness of a credit card. The player shoots softly towards that ball and the cue ball is pushed into the rack for about half a ball diameter. The safety for the other player is now very, very difficult and maybe he is already on one.

I would have to conclude for most players that this would be intentional manipulation of the position by an intentional double hit. If that's allowed, then why not my "push the cue ball into the middle of the rack until it is frozen to five balls" shot?

This is not an easy foul to call especially since the tradition has allowed some amount of pushing/double hits as perfectly normal.

When you are in the middle of a formal match and this topic has not been discussed in a players' meeting, and the shot comes up, there's a problem. If we imagine there's a ref, the ref should be silent until the shot is played or the player asks for a rules clarification. Should the opponent say something?
Unless that rule has also been changed, shooting directly into a too-close ball isn’t allowed. Executing that type of ‘intentional foul’ likely SHOULD be defined as ‘unsportsmanlike like’ (?). But, attempting to legally ‘stoke’ the CB and only move it an inch (to accomplish a ‘corner-hook’) is another issue. Or, is that really an impossible goal?
  
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11-14-2019, 12:25 PM

Just to clarify -- if the cb is frozen to a ball in the rack, like after a side of the rack safety, is it legal to push the cue ball directly into the frozen ball just "a little"? I thought this was legal, like in pushing through a frozen ball out in the open field.


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11-15-2019, 03:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Just to clarify -- if the cb is frozen to a ball in the rack, like after a side of the rack safety, is it legal to push the cue ball directly into the frozen ball just "a little"? I thought this was legal, like in pushing through a frozen ball out in the open field.
A ‘push’ shot isn’t allowed under any circumstance. You MAY ‘stroke’ directly/level into a frozen ball, but I think if that ball is backed up by many others, you might risk a double hit (?), since the ball would likely rebound before you could withdraw the tip?

P.S. Experimenting, I found the easiest way (for me) to reliably execute a totally legal ‘stroke’ and only move the CB an inch, is to jack-up and gently stroke down on the very edge of the (polished) CB.
  
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11-15-2019, 12:25 PM

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A ‘push’ shot isn’t allowed under any circumstance. You MAY ‘stroke’ directly/level into a frozen ball, but I think if that ball is backed up by many others, you might risk a double hit (?), since the ball would likely rebound before you could withdraw the tip?

P.S. Experimenting, I found the easiest way (for me) to reliably execute a totally legal ‘stroke’ and only move the CB an inch, is to jack-up and gently stroke down on the very edge of the (polished) CB.
I ask because an extremely well respected individual/instructor showed me a safety shot into a cluster in which he simply pushed the tip into the ball enough to move the cue ball (and balls behind it) a little as an intentional foul. By your reasoning this is not allowed. Still confused...


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11-15-2019, 02:24 PM

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I ask because an extremely well respected individual/instructor showed me a safety shot into a cluster in which he simply pushed the tip into the ball enough to move the cue ball (and balls behind it) a little as an intentional foul. By your reasoning this is not allowed. Still confused...
If the intentional push/double hit is permitted, how far into the rack is the player permitted to push? A reasonable amount? A traditional amount? Until the ref throws a bucket of ice water on him?

If you let me play with one continuous contact of tip-to-cueball at one pocket, I can herd all the object balls over packed solid by my pocket and leave my opponent corner hooked. That's extreme, but I think we can agree that such a manipulation of the balls must be against the rules. If that is not permitted, where do you draw the line?


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11-16-2019, 09:12 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
If the intentional push/double hit is permitted, how far into the rack is the player permitted to push? A reasonable amount? A traditional amount? Until the ref throws a bucket of ice water on him?

If you let me play with one continuous contact of tip-to-cueball at one pocket, I can herd all the object balls over packed solid by my pocket and leave my opponent corner hooked. That's extreme, but I think we can agree that such a manipulation of the balls must be against the rules. If that is not permitted, where do you draw the line?
Yeah, I get the logic. I was trying to reconcile what I was shown with this thread. Maybe I just "misremembered" in the words of Roger Clemens.

So if I'm stuck to the side of the rack my only option is to shoot away from the pack or at a glancing angle to the frozen balls. Jacking up and shooting into the frozen balls is still not an option? I'm thinking the ferrule will touch the cb in such a case since there are other balls behind the frozen one.


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11-16-2019, 09:17 AM

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Yeah, I get the logic. I was trying to reconcile what I was shown with this thread. Maybe I just "misremembered" in the words of Roger Clemens.

So if I'm stuck to the side of the rack my only option is to shoot away from the pack or at a glancing angle to the frozen balls. Jacking up and shooting into the frozen balls is still not an option? I'm thinking the ferrule will touch the cb in such a case since there are other balls behind the frozen one.
I think it is OK to shoot towards the rack if you do it as gently as possible which might include jacking up and tapping the top of the ball.


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