Disappointing Sportsmanship or Not?

gregcantrall · Jul 25, 2019

I have never encountered a rule set that allows coaching only if you are the opponent. The rule set I am familiar with does not allow coaching nor does it allow interrupting my opponent when he is shooting.

So you throw in the word etiquette. Well I guess etiquette trumps the rules.

DecentShot · Jul 25, 2019

I know the OP framed the situation by telling us the discrepancy in skill level. This is superfluous. Is the rule is you must tell your opponent when he is about to do something dumb or not? Are we doing the "unwrtten rule" thing? I would say if it matters that much, write it down. What are you going to do, make it a foul on the guy NOT shooting when he doesn't say something? Also, you are assuming his, "I have no idea what your doing when you line the 7 up." Isn't valid, to me this is the ONLY valid thing to say. I can't imagine correcting my opponent when he ISN"T about to do what we all assume he is going to do. No! If you want to embarrass yourself, go for it, but you won't be getting any help from me.

Poolfiend · Jul 25, 2019

The mental part of pool is just as challenging and important as the physical. If my opponent's mental game starts to break down toward the end of the night and he starts shooting at the wrong balls or fouling by losing focus and miscuing then maybe I will win because I have prepared more or worked harder. Why should someone put in the time and effort to develop a strong mental game and then turn that advantage over when it finally starts to pay off?

Similar to Chess - would you put in the time and effort to develop strong Chess skills and then, in the middle of competition, stop your opponent before he makes a move that loses him the game?

jimmyco · Jul 25, 2019

Toxictom said:
I have read through this entire thread and I'm a little confused. Am I missing something here? The OP said the guy had ball in hand on the 6. Then goes on to say he pocketed the 6. Where is the foul?

I noticed as well.

But since the OP had already edited his post at least once, I decided to have a little integrity and not correct. There were afterall four balls on the table and the apparent confusion carried over into his post.

noMoreSchon · Jul 25, 2019

What people are not addressing is that an A player fouled on the 5 ball. It is tied 3-3

and going to five is tough, especially if a foul means your opponent is now on the hill.

I would not say anything, being that I made a mistake, and paid for it. If my opponent

does the same thing it doesn't matter, now if the score were different, say a race to seven

I see no reason to give a heads up. Play the score. That is the difference in the set. If

you were both on the hill, I don't think many who are advocating telling the incoming

player of his mistake would actually do it. And if you did, and lost it might be your last

time to do it. I lose all the time to mental errors, and learn each time one is made. So

will the opponent who shot the wrong ball.

Ty Arnold · Jul 25, 2019

I guess it depends on who the tournament director is for the situation. But if player A knew he was shooting the wrong shot and immediately pointed it out as if he knew beforehand that would be unsportsmanlike conduct and loss of game. Maybe I'm wrong. I guess it is the opinion as you say of the tournament director.

ChrisinNC · Jul 25, 2019

Tin Man said:
I don't take issue with anyone that wants to correct their opponent's error. If they want to make that gesture as a courtesy, I'm fine with them choosing to do so.

Where I have an issue is if someone were to judge me as having a 'lack of character' for not doing the same. I play competitive pool and I play by the rules. I don't cheat. I play by the same rules as my opponent, and we don't correct each other's mistakes.

For someone to invent their own standards of sportsmanship and then criticize me for not living up to them doesn't seem right.

But this is the world we live in. I've accepted that if I play competitive pool publicly then people will have critical opinions about me and my decisions. The key for me is to try my absolute hardest to be a good sport and good person, then the criticism rolls off my back because I know I've done my best. The same way I try my hardest at the table to play my best pool and if railbirds want to criticize me then I can tune that out.

When you get what you want in your struggle for self
And the world makes you king for a day
Just go to the mirror and look at yourself
And see what that man has to say.

For it isn’t your father, or mother, or wife
Whose judgment upon you must pass
The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the one staring back from the glass.

He’s the fellow to please – never mind all the rest
For he’s with you, clear to the end
And you’ve passed your most difficult, dangerous test
If the man in the glass is your friend.

You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you’ve cheated the man in the glass.

I guess what bothers me more than the opponent having not warned the shooter in advance of their critical mistake, is that the opponent watched it all happen, then immediately called the foul, then felt the need to tell their opponent that they didn't realize they were about to shoot at the wrong ball until it was too late or they would have stopped them from doing it.

I have absolutely no problem with a player who feels it's not their responsibility to warn you that you're about to shoot at the wrong ball in this situation, but don't then try to come across as a nice guy by claiming to the player who has just shot at the wrong ball that they would have stopped you if they'd realized what you were doing, when they know that's an outright lie. Just take your BIH and keep quiet.

ChrisinNC · Jul 25, 2019

Toxictom said:
I have read through this entire thread and I'm a little confused. Am I missing something here? The OP said the guy had ball in hand on the 6. Then goes on to say he pocketed the 6. Where is the foul?

Sorry, I just re-read through my original post and just corrected it - thanks. He had BIH on the 6-ball, but set up and shot the 7-ball by mistake, and then was immediately told by his opponent that he'd just shot at the wrong ball.

Black-Balled · Jul 25, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
I guess what bothers me more than the opponent having not warned the shooter in advance of their critical mistake, is that the opponent watched it all happen, then immediately called the foul, then felt the need to tell their opponent that they didn't realize they were about to shoot at the wrong ball until it was too late or they would have stopped them from doing it.

I have absolutely no problem with a player who feels it's not their responsibility to warn you that you're about to shoot at the wrong ball in this situation, but don't then try to come across as a nice guy by claiming to the player who has just shot at the wrong ball that they would have stopped you if they'd realized what you were doing, when they know that's an outright lie. Just take your BIH and keep quiet.

Man, I am not following your need to judge here.

What if a guy has BIH on the 7, with the 8&9 tied up? Is it now the other guys responsibility to advise the opponent to break the 8&9 out?

And the issue at hand is not whether a guy tried to sound like a good guy or not.

jimmyco · Jul 25, 2019

Black-Balled said:
Man, I am not following your need to judge here.
...

...

You must be new.

DecentShot · Jul 25, 2019

Black-Balled said:
Man, I am not following your need to judge here.

What if a guy has BIH on the 7, with the 8&9 tied up? Is it now the other guys responsibility to advise the opponent to break the 8&9 out?

And the issue at hand is not whether a guy tried to sound like a good guy or not.

This is exactly right. Where does the slippery slope end? Oh your breaking on the left side of the table? Its been dry all night...better try the right side. I mean come on. Any rule that forces you to help your opponent beat you is a stupid rule.

ShootingArts · Jul 25, 2019

the score

noMoreSchon said:
What people are not addressing is that an A player fouled on the 5 ball. It is tied 3-3

and going to five is tough, especially if a foul means your opponent is now on the hill.

I would not say anything, being that I made a mistake, and paid for it. If my opponent

does the same thing it doesn't matter, now if the score were different, say a race to seven

I see no reason to give a heads up. Play the score. That is the difference in the set. If

you were both on the hill, I don't think many who are advocating telling the incoming

player of his mistake would actually do it. And if you did, and lost it might be your last

time to do it. I lose all the time to mental errors, and learn each time one is made. So

will the opponent who shot the wrong ball.

The score is 3-3 with a two game spot. That means the A player has won three games and the C player has won one. Looks to me like the odds still favor the A player. Can't see the table layout of course but the C player has to run four balls then break and run to shut out the A player assuming no early nine. If the A player gets back to the table he should be able to control it pretty easily.

Hu

MattPoland · Jul 25, 2019

jeremy8000 said:
Pretty sure this is still the case in APA...

In 8-ball, if a player has solids but starts shooting stripes, the foul is only recognized if called by one of the players. The opponent can actually allow the shooter to continue to shoot the wrong balls and then call the foul later - either when they miss, are getting ready to shoot the 8 for the win, etc. By the same token, if the shooter realizes they've shot the wrong ball (stripes in this case, as above), they can proceed to shoot in a solid at which point it becomes too late for the opponent to call the foul.

So much room for abuse of the spirit of the game.

Our league has the house rule that if you let your opponent pocket two consecutive balls of the wrong set without calling the foul, you’ve officially switched from solids to stripes (or vice versatility as the situation applies).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

DecentShot · Jul 25, 2019

MattPoland said:
Our league has the house rule that if you let your opponent pocket two consecutive balls of the wrong set without calling the foul, you’ve officially switched from solids to stripes (or vice versatility as the situation applies).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

An elegant little solution. For me its usually a problem after my 8th beer.

Tin Man · Jul 25, 2019

agreed

ChrisinNC said:
I guess what bothers me more than the opponent having not warned the shooter in advance of their critical mistake, is that the opponent watched it all happen, then immediately called the foul, then felt the need to tell their opponent that they didn't realize they were about to shoot at the wrong ball until it was too late or they would have stopped them from doing it.

I have absolutely no problem with a player who feels it's not their responsibility to warn you that you're about to shoot at the wrong ball in this situation, but don't then try to come across as a nice guy by claiming to the player who has just shot at the wrong ball that they would have stopped you if they'd realized what you were doing, when they know that's an outright lie. Just take your BIH and keep quiet.

Yeah, that is a funny thing. It wouldn't bother me if I saw it but it is a little weak. Just call foul and move on.

JazzyJeff87 · Jul 25, 2019

Ty Arnold said:
I guess it depends on who the tournament director is for the situation. But if player A knew he was shooting the wrong shot and immediately pointed it out as if he knew beforehand that would be unsportsmanlike conduct and loss of game. Maybe I'm wrong. I guess it is the opinion as you say of the tournament director.

That’s not the case with any league or pro tournament I’ve ever seen. The opponent in this situation (the A player) is the only person allowed to tell the guy shooting (the C player) that he is about to foul. No ref or bystander is allowed to give a heads up, only the opponent...but he doesn’t have to tell him at all.

Like some in here I go case by case...depending on score, team event, opponent skill, personality, my mood / level of play. If I’m playing bad I’ll tell them, hoping to stir something up and get good karma. Playing good I want to take over and win right from that moment.

noMoreSchon · Jul 26, 2019

ShootingArts said:
The score is 3-3 with a two game spot. That means the A player has won three games and the C player has won one. Looks to me like the odds still favor the A player. Can't see the table layout of course but the C player has to run four balls then break and run to shut out the A player assuming no early nine. If the A player gets back to the table he should be able to control it pretty easily.

Hu

Yup, he is still a favourite to win, and the score after the 4 ball out would be 4-3 in

favor of the lower rated player. All ready gave up two games, no reason to give up

a third one. I have been on the wrong side of getting a lower player on the hill before

I had a chance to do something. All balls roll funny, no need to chance fate, and fate

was on the A players side when the lower rated player shot the wrong ball. I am in

agreeance that each situation is completely different. I am curious to know if this

player does this a lot? Or is this just a random thing. I know that I have not said any

thing in the past, but I also know that I have said something more times than not.

MmmSharp · Jul 26, 2019

ChrisinNC said:
Anyone knowledgeable of tournament rules and etiquette knows that no one is permitted to clue in the shooter they are shooting at the wrong ball, other than their opponent if they so choose to do so.

I'm just saying that my character / integrity is more important to me than winning one game, one match or one tournament, particularly when playing a far weaker opponent. I'd hope that I'd fall among those who, as an opponent and if I saw it happening in enough to stop them from going through with the shot, I would choose to speak up and say something, unless that player had shown disrespect and/or a lack of etiquette towards me or another opponent I'd witnessed previously - if that's the case, then all bets are off.

My feelings exactly. I will speak up I see an obvious mistake like shooting the wrong ball, or if I foul and the opponent doesn't notice (different scenario, i know). I look at it as what is more important to me ? Winning a game now and then because i didn't speak up? or being helpful and honest. I will err on the side of honesty every time.

I also appreciate the people who speak up. Especially in a tournament situation where not every table has a ref, if you are playing someone trustworthy, There is less likely to be a dispute.

I like being know for my honesty, and it gets me games everywhere i go in town. if someone is know to abuse the system or not speak up, it gets around quick. my good reputation got around quick. a bad one gets around quicker. We are a bunch of gossiping old men. Just look at the number of threads like this one.

pt109 · Jul 26, 2019

MmmSharp said:
My feelings exactly. I will speak up I see an obvious mistake like shooting the wrong ball, or if I foul and the opponent doesn't notice (different scenario, i know). I look at it as what is more important to me ? Winning a game now and then because i didn't speak up? or being helpful and honest. I will err on the side of honesty every time.

I also appreciate the people who speak up. Especially in a tournament situation where not every table has a ref, if you are playing someone trustworthy, There is less likely to be a dispute.

I like being know for my honesty, and it gets me games everywhere i go in town. if someone is know to abuse the system or not speak up, it gets around quick. my good reputation got around quick. a bad one gets around quicker. We are a bunch of gossiping old men. Just look at the number of threads like this one.

How about ONE good set of RULES?
...that apply to friend or foe, good guy or bad guy.

I’ve got some experience running tournaments just like the OP....
..a lot of them were snooker in the 80s....caught two guys playing a full game when they
had tied...went over and scattered the balls.....on a tie game, the black is respotted, cue
ball is placed in the ‘D’ and flip to see who shoots....they said they agreed to play again...
...I told them “Everybody plays with one set of rules.”
If variations are allowed, a big tough guy can get his own way....
,,,,not in my tournaments.

Black-Balled · Jul 26, 2019

I agree with Petey oh 9.

A rule should remove any personal feelings from the decision.

It's a game. It has no emotions.

Disappointing Sportsmanship or Not?

Center Ball

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Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!

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Nudge is as good as a wink to a blind bat.

WO double hemlock

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