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11-06-2018, 06:04 PM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
20.) don't play for tough position for an easier shot if easy position for a slightly tougher shot is available (i.e., "Just take what's offered").
That's a keeper. I think of it as "compare the total difficulty of both shots each way".

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11-06-2018, 06:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
That's a keeper. I think of it as "compare the total difficulty of both shots each way".
That is the only way to think of it. I disagree with the way the concept is normally presented by most people (take the tough shot over the tough position, or take what the table gives you) and the wording in #20 also leaves a lot to be desired. It is playing the percentages, nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes that will necessitate a little tougher shot for a little easier position, and sometimes that will necessitate a little tougher position for a little easier shot depending on the relative difficulties of each. For any particular person the right choice may also vary depending upon their relative strengths in shot making and position play, and on that same shot the right choice may be different for the next guy.
  
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11-06-2018, 09:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
That is the only way to think of it. I disagree with the way the concept is normally presented by most people (take the tough shot over the tough position, or take what the table gives you) and the wording in #20 also leaves a lot to be desired. It is playing the percentages, nothing more, nothing less. Sometimes that will necessitate a little tougher shot for a little easier position, and sometimes that will necessitate a little tougher position for a little easier shot depending on the relative difficulties of each. For any particular person the right choice may also vary depending upon their relative strengths in shot making and position play, and on that same shot the right choice may be different for the next guy.
Well stated.

Thanks for the input,
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11-07-2018, 03:25 AM

Sometimes I've heard it talked about in terms of:
"Don't take one ultra hard shot to get to the next one perfectly. Rather split the difficulty over two shots."
Meaning it's better to have two semi-difficult (but still quite makeable) shots than playing the first one extremely difficult just to get perfect on the next one.

Last edited by MeeLosh; 11-07-2018 at 03:57 AM.
  
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11-07-2018, 06:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeeLosh View Post
Sometimes I've heard it talked about in terms of:
"Don't take one ultra hard shot to get to the next one perfectly. Rather split the difficulty over two shots."
Meaning it's better to have two semi-difficult (but still quite makeable) shots than playing the first one extremely difficult just to get perfect on the next one.
I've never heard it like that before.

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Dave
  
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11-07-2018, 11:18 AM

A couple more....

Don't try to get perfect position on EVERY shot... Buddy used to talk about
this... I used to watch Parica make that decision.. accept the less than
perfect shape to get to the next ball.

Don't take Ball In Hand for granted... too many times I've seen a guy
with BIH choose the wrong shot, screw up his runout.
  
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  (#67)
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11-07-2018, 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runner View Post
A couple more....

Don't try to get perfect position on EVERY shot... Buddy used to talk about
this... I used to watch Parica make that decision.. accept the less than
perfect shape to get to the next ball.

Don't take Ball In Hand for granted... too many times I've seen a guy
with BIH choose the wrong shot, screw up his runout.
Thanks.

I've revised 20 and added 27 and 28.

Here's the latest tentative list for the new videos: "Top 10 Shots Amateurs Play Wrong" and "Top 10 Position Plays Amateurs Get Wrong:"

1.) come off a rail (use the rail as a brake, and as your friend) rather than attempting to hold a shot with finesse (where throw or cling/skid/kick can cause a miss).
2.) using 45 degree rule off end rail to pocket game ball (9 or 10) with a confident stroke with no risk of scratch.
3.) thin cut a ball instead of banking it (unless it is an easy, fairly straight cross-side or cross-corner bank).
4.) use slow speed at shallow angles into corner pockets to make effective size of pocket larger (instead of hammering it and rattling the ball).
5.) when using slow speed, especially with stun, aim to over-cut the ball slightly to compensate for throw (or use gearing outside english).
6.) when breaking out clusters, use the slowest speed possible to get a controlled and desirable outcome.
7.) when banking, use either slow speed (for natural rolling-ball) or fast speed (to guarantee ball slide), both of which have predictable rebound angles.
8.) aim firm, close-range follow shots slightly full to compensate for ball-hop over-cut effect.
9.) don't use sidespin when there are good alternatives with no sidespin
10.) don't bump a good ball into a bad position, but do bump bad balls into good positions.
11.) use stun-roll-through or stun-back by adjusting the tip slightly from the easy-to-judge stop-shot position.
12.) plan position so you can follow for the dough instead of drawing for show (unless the draw shot is natural).
13.) leave angles on shots, stay on the correct side of each shot, come into the line of the next shot, and keep CB motion to a minimum.
14.) identify and solve problems early, and identify key shots and key balls to get on the key shots (especially the game ball).
15.) on the break, use only as much power as you can control (an accurate, square hit with good technique is much more effective than lots of muscle).
16.) use running spin to make a steep rail cut shot much easier (and hit cushion first).
17.) throwing vs. cutting frozen and small-gap combos.
18.) when you elevate the cue to clear a ball, to swerve, or to jump, keep your vision center over the cue, and aim in the non-elevated position. Also, elevate as little as necessary.
19.) getting position on and off pocket hangers.
20.) don't play for tough position for an easier shot if easy position for a slightly tougher shot is available, weighing both alternatives carefully (always go with the higher percentage option).
21.) don't slow-roll the ball on a table that might have roll-off (use a drag shot, stun forward, or other option instead).
22.) use running english (instead of extra speed) to help send the CB along natural position routes with ease.
23.) never be uncertain about CB direction or the possibility of a scratch ... master the 90 deg, 30 deg, and trisect rules.
24.) don't just guess when aiming with sidespin ... use a system (like BHE/FHE calibration) and/or practice a lot more.
25.) know how to use the 45 degree rule to go to and through the center of the table.
26.) always play an easy lock-up safe instead of a low-percentage offensive shot.
27.) strive for perfect position, but accept less-than-perfect position when it is the best play (i.e., just take what is offered).
28.) don't take BIH for granted and choose the shot carefully to get the most benefit (e.g., don't just set up a straight shot on the easiest ball).
29.) sometimes a 2-rail kick is better than a 1-rail kick.

Anybody have any other ideas for good things to include?

Thanks,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 11-07-2018 at 01:39 PM.
  
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11-08-2018, 06:35 AM

I’ll be filming this weekend. Anybody else have any suggestions.

Thanks,
Dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Thanks.

I've revised 20 and added 27 and 28.

Here's the latest tentative list for the new videos: "Top 10 Shots Amateurs Play Wrong" and "Top 10 Position Plays Amateurs Get Wrong:"

1.) come off a rail (use the rail as a brake, and as your friend) rather than attempting to hold a shot with finesse (where throw or cling/skid/kick can cause a miss).
2.) using 45 degree rule off end rail to pocket game ball (9 or 10) with a confident stroke with no risk of scratch.
3.) thin cut a ball instead of banking it (unless it is an easy, fairly straight cross-side or cross-corner bank).
4.) use slow speed at shallow angles into corner pockets to make effective size of pocket larger (instead of hammering it and rattling the ball).
5.) when using slow speed, especially with stun, aim to over-cut the ball slightly to compensate for throw (or use gearing outside english).
6.) when breaking out clusters, use the slowest speed possible to get a controlled and desirable outcome.
7.) when banking, use either slow speed (for natural rolling-ball) or fast speed (to guarantee ball slide), both of which have predictable rebound angles.
8.) aim firm, close-range follow shots slightly full to compensate for ball-hop over-cut effect.
9.) don't use sidespin when there are good alternatives with no sidespin
10.) don't bump a good ball into a bad position, but do bump bad balls into good positions.
11.) use stun-roll-through or stun-back by adjusting the tip slightly from the easy-to-judge stop-shot position.
12.) plan position so you can follow for the dough instead of drawing for show (unless the draw shot is natural).
13.) leave angles on shots, stay on the correct side of each shot, come into the line of the next shot, and keep CB motion to a minimum.
14.) identify and solve problems early, and identify key shots and key balls to get on the key shots (especially the game ball).
15.) on the break, use only as much power as you can control (an accurate, square hit with good technique is much more effective than lots of muscle).
16.) use running spin to make a steep rail cut shot much easier (and hit cushion first).
17.) throwing vs. cutting frozen and small-gap combos.
18.) when you elevate the cue to clear a ball, to swerve, or to jump, keep your vision center over the cue, and aim in the non-elevated position. Also, elevate as little as necessary.
19.) getting position on and off pocket hangers.
20.) don't play for tough position for an easier shot if easy position for a slightly tougher shot is available, weighing both alternatives carefully (always go with the higher percentage option).
21.) don't slow-roll the ball on a table that might have roll-off (use a drag shot, stun forward, or other option instead).
22.) use running english (instead of extra speed) to help send the CB along natural position routes with ease.
23.) never be uncertain about CB direction or the possibility of a scratch ... master the 90 deg, 30 deg, and trisect rules.
24.) don't just guess when aiming with sidespin ... use a system (like BHE/FHE calibration) and/or practice a lot more.
25.) know how to use the 45 degree rule to go to and through the center of the table.
26.) always play an easy lock-up safe instead of a low-percentage offensive shot.
27.) strive for perfect position, but accept less-than-perfect position when it is the best play (i.e., just take what is offered).
28.) don't take BIH for granted and choose the shot carefully to get the most benefit (e.g., don't just set up a straight shot on the easiest ball).
29.) sometimes a 2-rail kick is better than a 1-rail kick.

Anybody have any other ideas for good things to include?

Thanks,
Dave
  
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  (#69)
Patrick Johnson
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11-08-2018, 07:22 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I’ll be filming this weekend. Anybody else have any suggestions.

Thanks,
Dave
I don't see anything about seeing/using the tangent line to estimate CB paths and position options...?

[Edit: Oh, I see that #23 mentions the "90 degree rule".)

pj
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11-08-2018, 07:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I’ll be filming this weekend. Anybody else have any suggestions.

Thanks,
Dave
Here are two more that I see amateurs struggle with a lot but I don't know if they are worthy of high enough placement on a list. The first could also be seen as tying into #19, depending on your judgement or how you wanted to group things. When an object ball is near a rail, and the shot angle is pretty full, and the cue ball path after contact will put it heading fairly perpendicularly into the rail, amateurs can't seem to understand why the cue ball doesn't have a lot of speed left after coming off the rail and often won't come back down table even when they hit it harder and harder (of course the natural roll of the cue ball gets converted into follow or "force follow" and kills much or all of the cue ball speed after rebounding from the rail). You tend to see this happen most often when they have an object ball less than a diamond away from the corner pocket and they want to use one rail shape to bounce off the end rail and get to the other end of the table for shape on the next ball.

The other is simply fuller hits with the cue ball and object close together and their tendency to double hit the cue ball.

Last edited by Poolplaya9; 11-08-2018 at 07:29 AM.
  
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11-08-2018, 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolplaya9 View Post
Here are two more that I see amateurs struggle with a lot but I don't know if they are worthy of high enough placement on a list. The first could also be seen as tying into #19, depending on your judgement or how you wanted to group things. When an object ball is near a rail, and the shot angle is pretty full, and the cue ball path after contact will put it heading fairly perpendicularly into the rail, amateurs can't seem to understand why the cue ball doesn't have a lot of speed left after coming off the rail and often won't come back down table even when they hit it harder and harder (of course the natural roll of the cue ball gets converted into follow or "force follow" and kills much or all of the cue ball speed after rebounding from the rail). You tend to see this happen most often when they have an object ball less than a diamond away from the corner pocket and they want to use one rail shape to bounce off the end rail and get to the other end of the table for shape on the next ball.

The other is simply fuller hits with the cue ball and object close together and their tendency to double hit the cue ball.
Good ones! I'll add both of these to the list, and they will probably make the cut.

Thanks,
Dave
  
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11-08-2018, 09:25 AM

Here's the latest tentative list for the new videos: "Top 10 Shots Amateurs Play Wrong" and "Top 10 Position Plays Amateurs Get Wrong:"

1.) come off a rail (use the rail as a brake, and as your friend) rather than attempting to hold a shot with finesse (where throw or cling/skid/kick can cause a miss).
2.) using 45 degree rule off end rail to pocket game ball (9 or 10) with a confident stroke with no risk of scratch.
3.) thin cut a ball instead of banking it (unless it is an easy, fairly straight cross-side or cross-corner bank).
4.) use slow speed at shallow angles into corner pockets to make effective size of pocket larger (instead of hammering it and rattling the ball).
5.) when using slow speed, especially with stun, aim to over-cut the ball slightly to compensate for throw (or use gearing outside english).
6.) when breaking out clusters, use the slowest speed possible to get a controlled and desirable outcome.
7.) when banking, use either slow speed (for natural rolling-ball) or fast speed (to guarantee ball slide), both of which have predictable rebound angles.
8.) aim firm, close-range follow shots slightly full to compensate for ball-hop over-cut effect.
9.) don't use sidespin when there are good alternatives with no sidespin
10.) don't bump balls if you don't need to (i.e., don't bump a good ball into a bad position, but do bump bad balls into good positions).
11.) use stun-roll-through or stun-back by adjusting the tip slightly from the easy-to-judge stop-shot position.
12.) plan position so you can follow for the dough instead of drawing for show, especially with BIH (unless the draw shot is natural).
13.) leave angles on shots, stay on the correct side of each shot, come into the line of the next shot, and keep CB motion to a minimum.
14.) identify and solve problems early, and identify key shots and key balls to get on the key shots (especially the game ball).
15.) on the break, use only as much power as you can control (an accurate, square hit with good technique is much more effective than lots of muscle).
16.) use running spin to make a steep rail cut shot much easier (and hit cushion first).
17.) throwing vs. cutting frozen and small-gap combos.
18.) when you elevate the cue to clear a ball, to swerve, or to jump, keep your vision center over the cue, and aim in the non-elevated position. Also, elevate as little as necessary.
19.) getting position on and off pocket hangers.
20.) don't play for tough position for an easier shot if easy position for a slightly tougher shot is available, weighing both alternatives carefully (always go with the higher percentage option).
21.) don't slow-roll the ball on a table that might have roll-off (use a drag shot, stun forward, or other option instead).
22.) use running english (instead of extra speed) to help send the CB along natural position routes with ease.
23.) never be uncertain about CB direction or the possibility of a scratch ... master the 90 deg, 30 deg, and trisect rules.
24.) don't just guess when aiming with sidespin ... use a system (like BHE/FHE calibration) and/or practice a lot more.
25.) know how to use the 45 degree rule to go to and through the center of the table.
26.) always play an easy lock-up safe instead of a low-percentage offensive shot.
27.) strive for perfect position, but accept less-than-perfect position when it is the best play (i.e., just take what is offered).
28.) don't take BIH for granted and choose the shot carefully to get the most benefit (e.g., don't just set up a straight shot on the easiest ball).
29.) sometimes a 2-rail kick is better than a 1-rail kick.
30.) fairly straight follow shots with OB close to rail can cause "rail dribble" with very little motion away from the rail.
31.) be aware how to detect and avoid close-range double hits.

Anybody have any other ideas for good things to include?

Thanks,
Dave

Last edited by dr_dave; 11-08-2018 at 09:28 AM.
  
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11-08-2018, 10:19 AM

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Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
...
28.) don't take BIH for granted and choose the shot carefully to get the most benefit (e.g., don't just set up a straight shot on the easiest ball).
...
This is a huge problem for most beginners. With ball in hand they put the cue ball back three feet and with no angle or a useless angle or on the wrong side of the ball. Nearly always.

Somehow they just can't recognize where they would most like the cue ball to be. The follow-on conclusion is that when planning a run, they have little to no idea of where to position the cue ball on each shot beyond being able to see the next ball, maybe.

(See the recent thread(s) asking about how to learn pattern play.)


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11-08-2018, 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
This is a huge problem for most beginners. With ball in hand they put the cue ball back three feet and with no angle or a useless angle or on the wrong side of the ball. Nearly always.

Somehow they just can't recognize where they would most like the cue ball to be. The follow-on conclusion is that when planning a run, they have little to no idea of where to position the cue ball on each shot beyond being able to see the next ball, maybe.

(See the recent thread(s) asking about how to learn pattern play.)
Well stated. Thanks for the input!

Regards,
Dave
  
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11-09-2018, 10:50 AM

Last chance for input. I will be filming this weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
Here's the latest tentative list for the new videos: "Top 10 Shots Amateurs Play Wrong" and "Top 10 Position Plays Amateurs Get Wrong:"

1.) come off a rail (use the rail as a brake, and as your friend) rather than attempting to hold a shot with finesse (where throw or cling/skid/kick can cause a miss).
2.) using 45 degree rule off end rail to pocket game ball (9 or 10) with a confident stroke with no risk of scratch.
3.) thin cut a ball instead of banking it (unless it is an easy, fairly straight cross-side or cross-corner bank).
4.) use slow speed at shallow angles into corner pockets to make effective size of pocket larger (instead of hammering it and rattling the ball).
5.) when using slow speed, especially with stun, aim to over-cut the ball slightly to compensate for throw (or use gearing outside english).
6.) when breaking out clusters, use the slowest speed possible to get a controlled and desirable outcome.
7.) when banking, use either slow speed (for natural rolling-ball) or fast speed (to guarantee ball slide), both of which have predictable rebound angles.
8.) aim firm, close-range follow shots slightly full to compensate for ball-hop over-cut effect.
9.) don't use sidespin when there are good alternatives with no sidespin
10.) don't bump balls if you don't need to (i.e., don't bump a good ball into a bad position, but do bump bad balls into good positions).
11.) use stun-roll-through or stun-back by adjusting the tip slightly from the easy-to-judge stop-shot position.
12.) plan position so you can follow for the dough instead of drawing for show, especially with BIH (unless the draw shot is natural).
13.) leave angles on shots, stay on the correct side of each shot, come into the line of the next shot, and keep CB motion to a minimum.
14.) identify and solve problems early, and identify key shots and key balls to get on the key shots (especially the game ball).
15.) on the break, use only as much power as you can control (an accurate, square hit with good technique is much more effective than lots of muscle).
16.) use running spin to make a steep rail cut shot much easier (and hit cushion first).
17.) throwing vs. cutting frozen and small-gap combos.
18.) when you elevate the cue to clear a ball, to swerve, or to jump, keep your vision center over the cue, and aim in the non-elevated position. Also, elevate as little as necessary.
19.) getting position on and off pocket hangers.
20.) don't play for tough position for an easier shot if easy position for a slightly tougher shot is available, weighing both alternatives carefully (always go with the higher percentage option).
21.) don't slow-roll the ball on a table that might have roll-off (use a drag shot, stun forward, or other option instead).
22.) use running english (instead of extra speed) to help send the CB along natural position routes with ease.
23.) never be uncertain about CB direction or the possibility of a scratch ... master the 90 deg, 30 deg, and trisect rules.
24.) don't just guess when aiming with sidespin ... use a system (like BHE/FHE calibration) and/or practice a lot more.
25.) know how to use the 45 degree rule to go to and through the center of the table.
26.) always play an easy lock-up safe instead of a low-percentage offensive shot.
27.) strive for perfect position, but accept less-than-perfect position when it is the best play (i.e., just take what is offered).
28.) don't take BIH for granted and choose the shot carefully to get the most benefit (e.g., don't just set up a straight shot on the easiest ball).
29.) sometimes a 2-rail kick is better than a 1-rail kick.
30.) fairly straight follow shots with OB close to rail can cause "rail dribble" with very little motion away from the rail.
31.) be aware how to detect and avoid close-range double hits.

Anybody have any other ideas for good things to include?

Thanks,
Dave
  
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