Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > 14.1 Pool
Reload this Page Break Shot Pros and Cons
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Break Shot Pros and Cons
Old
  (#1)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
Break Shot Pros and Cons - 10-02-2019, 07:01 PM

The most traditional break shot to continue a run or open a rack is lined up for a corner pocket behind the rack with a natural line towards the rack.

As a novice attempting the same break shot, its common for me to either freeze to the rack or end up scratching.

The behind the rack break shot seems to help eliminate those problems.

The question I pose is how much does the break shot influence the table layout for a rack run. As a player with flaws and weak areas in the game which priority should be served first, playing to control the table (playing safe) or playing to maintain the run (low percentage positions).
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,889
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
10-02-2019, 07:18 PM

You must, of course, play within your comfort zone when you compete.

Still, it sounds like you need to work on the standard side of the rack break shot. The reason this is the preferred break shot at the top level is that you have a better chance of judging the path of the cue ball off the rack than on most other break shots.

It's to your advantage that you have a comfort level with the behind the rack break shot, as you'll sometimes need it, but unless your running into a corner ball from behind, the shot must usually be hit with inside follow, and for all but the most elite players, that makes the shot harder to pocket.

If you are often getting stuck, odds are you're not paying enough attention to the attack angle. Other than on a silly thin cut, you have the ability to slightly change which part of the pack you hit on the standard break shot. Watch the best and you'll learn the optimal attack angles into the pack. You also have the ability to follow into the pack or draw off of it, depending on the attack angle chosen. Watch the best and study how they make their choice and you'll learn a lot.

Shunning the break shots with which you all too often struggle isn't the path to improvement. Don't shy away from the shots you need to be adding to your
arsenal.

Finally, the break shot chosen will not greatly influence the layout you produce. The pack will break, but the bigger issue is whether you subsequently have a shot. How well you spread the balls is far less important.

Last edited by sjm; 10-02-2019 at 07:21 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
justnum
AzB Silver Member
justnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond reputejustnum has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,537
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2005
   
10-03-2019, 06:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
You must, of course, play within your comfort zone when you compete.

Still, it sounds like you need to work on the standard side of the rack break shot. The reason this is the preferred break shot at the top level is that you have a better chance of judging the path of the cue ball off the rack than on most other break shots.

It's to your advantage that you have a comfort level with the behind the rack break shot, as you'll sometimes need it, but unless your running into a corner ball from behind, the shot must usually be hit with inside follow, and for all but the most elite players, that makes the shot harder to pocket.

If you are often getting stuck, odds are you're not paying enough attention to the attack angle. Other than on a silly thin cut, you have the ability to slightly change which part of the pack you hit on the standard break shot. Watch the best and you'll learn the optimal attack angles into the pack. You also have the ability to follow into the pack or draw off of it, depending on the attack angle chosen. Watch the best and study how they make their choice and you'll learn a lot.

Shunning the break shots with which you all too often struggle isn't the path to improvement. Don't shy away from the shots you need to be adding to your
arsenal.

Finally, the break shot chosen will not greatly influence the layout you produce. The pack will break, but the bigger issue is whether you subsequently have a shot. How well you spread the balls is far less important.
Having a shot consists of two criteria, where the cue ball is and if it can line up an object ball to a pocket

Having a shot can be assisted by choosing a advantageous location for the cue ball.

Where is the best place for a cue ball after a break shot?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,889
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
10-03-2019, 07:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Where is the best place for a cue ball after a break shot?
Same as nine ball --- close to the center of the table is where you'll mot often have a good shot.

The same principle often applies when you shoot a combo out of the rack. When you are not playing specific shape, the best place to which you can play the cue ball is the center of the table.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#5)
DynoDan
AzB Silver Member
DynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 295
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2018
   
10-03-2019, 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
Having a shot consists of two criteria, where the cue ball is and if it can line up an object ball to a pocket

Having a shot can be assisted by choosing a advantageous location for the cue ball.

Where is the best place for a cue ball after a break shot?
Ralph G. favored the side pocket break, contacting the head balls. When I do that, whitey often crosses the table and scratches.
I used to scratch a lot in the corner pocked after a side break, or stick to the rack. I had always assumed if you have an acute angle, a lot of follow would be called for, but now if the break ball is reasonably close to the pack, I always check the tangent line first. If the CB is going to hit short of the OB center, I usually try to draw off the rack. Better to overdraw down off the headrail and risk a longer shot than end up stuck to the pack (IMHO).
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,889
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
10-03-2019, 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
Ralph G. favored the side pocket break, contacting the head balls.
Wow, if you watched Greenleaf, who is dead for about 70 years, please share more. There's not much footage of him, and the quality of what there is disappoints. In all my years of watching straight pool, I've never seen a top player play the patterns to leave this break shot more than occasionally.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
DynoDan
AzB Silver Member
DynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond reputeDynoDan has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 295
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2018
   
10-04-2019, 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjm View Post
Wow, if you watched Greenleaf, who is dead for about 70 years, please share more. There's not much footage of him, and the quality of what there is disappoints. In all my years of watching straight pool, I've never seen a top player play the patterns to leave this break shot more than occasionally.
If I had been born a lot earlier, I likely would have seen him play, since we both grew up in the same small town.
Don’t remember specific sources, only heard/read over the years about his favoring the side pocket breakshot, which I assume was probably a more plausible option on the 10 foot tables common back then (?). Besides, who would guess someone with his quirky ‘sidearm’ stroke could be such a repeating world 14.1 champion? I thus don’t automatically discount the possibility of his game likely having other strange characteristics.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
sjm
Stu with the Ko brothers
sjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond reputesjm has a reputation beyond repute
 
sjm's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,889
vCash: 525
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New York, NY
   
10-04-2019, 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
If I had been born a lot earlier, I likely would have seen him play, since we both grew up in the same small town.
Don’t remember specific sources, only heard/read over the years about his favoring the side pocket breakshot, which I assume was probably a more plausible option on the 10 foot tables common back then (?). Besides, who would guess someone with his quirky ‘sidearm’ stroke could be such a repeating world 14.1 champion? I thus don’t automatically discount the possibility of his game likely having other strange characteristics.
Thanks for sharing. You should be very proud to be from Greenleaf's town.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
Straightpool_99
I see dead balls
Straightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond reputeStraightpool_99 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Straightpool_99's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,779
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Blog Entries: 6
Join Date: Feb 2006
   
10-05-2019, 01:13 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by justnum View Post
The most traditional break shot to continue a run or open a rack is lined up for a corner pocket behind the rack with a natural line towards the rack.

As a novice attempting the same break shot, its common for me to either freeze to the rack or end up scratching.

The behind the rack break shot seems to help eliminate those problems.

The question I pose is how much does the break shot influence the table layout for a rack run. As a player with flaws and weak areas in the game which priority should be served first, playing to control the table (playing safe) or playing to maintain the run (low percentage positions).
Side-of-the-rack breakshots are mostly preferred by lower skill players as well as agressive high skill ones. They tend to open the rack more, giving better opportunities to continue the run. You don't need a very severe angle to open the rack up nicely, which gives a somewhat less skilled player a chance to get a run going. If you freeze to the rack, your angle is probably not large enough, or you're using the wrong english.

The behind the rack shot is one I prefer, because I usually end up near the middle of the table, even though the spread is not as good as the perfect side-of-the-rack shot. It's very rare not to get a good shot from a break like this, if that happens it's usually from kissing the corner ball when the cueball comes around. I've noticed that sometimes these racks tend to not leave as great of a breakshot for the next rack. I read once that the old timers would alternate between behind the rack breaks and side pocket breaks, and I believe that, if the cloth was slow and the balls sluggish this is often how the balls end up.

If your cueball control is decent, behind the rack breakshots can be a great way to ensure you get a shot and keep a run going. If your cueball control is not as good, I'd recommend the side of the rack shot and more speed/angle.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
K2Kraze
AzB Gold Member
K2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond repute
 
K2Kraze's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,488
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Fort Worth, TX
   
10-05-2019, 07:54 PM

Reading through this “break shot pros and cons” thread gave me an idea
that just may be worth taking the time to put together....

Witnessing successful break shots is what all of us 14.1 players love to see - and strive for in our play every day. But let’s face it....they aren’t SEEN that often. Too few and far between as well.

Sure - we know the typical top 5 shots. We can diagram and draw them all day long. We study and read about them. We even practice the same 3-5 break shots. But it’s not enough. It’s never enough

The solution: take a few of the amazing high runs that have been recorded the past few years alone and simply put a “highlights reel” together of each one - with every break shot in sequence from the first one to the last of each run. Start each highlight reel with the shot leading up to the key ball and end with the first successful shot AFTER the break shot. Repeat.

Then use each recording as a training tool for what is undoubtedly the most challenging aspect of the 14.1 game - getting from one break shot to the next. Seeing 10 or 20 or more all from the same player within the same high run could do wonders for each of us.

It’s not the last 5 balls - it’s the last 2 - and the 1 that comes immediately after.

IMHO

Dare I ask: Thoughts, anyone?

~ K.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
mikemosconi
AzB Silver Member
mikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond reputemikemosconi has a reputation beyond repute
 
mikemosconi's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 630
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Naples, FL.
   
10-06-2019, 09:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by K2Kraze View Post
Reading through this “break shot pros and cons” thread gave me an idea
that just may be worth taking the time to put together....

Witnessing successful break shots is what all of us 14.1 players love to see - and strive for in our play every day. But let’s face it....they aren’t SEEN that often. Too few and far between as well.

Sure - we know the typical top 5 shots. We can diagram and draw them all day long. We study and read about them. We even practice the same 3-5 break shots. But it’s not enough. It’s never enough

The solution: take a few of the amazing high runs that have been recorded the past few years alone and simply put a “highlights reel” together of each one - with every break shot in sequence from the first one to the last of each run. Start each highlight reel with the shot leading up to the key ball and end with the first successful shot AFTER the break shot. Repeat.

Then use each recording as a training tool for what is undoubtedly the most challenging aspect of the 14.1 game - getting from one break shot to the next. Seeing 10 or 20 or more all from the same player within the same high run could do wonders for each of us.

It’s not the last 5 balls - it’s the last 2 - and the 1 that comes immediately after.

IMHO

Dare I ask: Thoughts, anyone?

~ K.
Well, I would say that it is the last 4 balls in a rack that are most important- as well as the next resulting break shot- you see, almost all break shots are set up via a triangular pattern of the PRIOR 3 balls on the table- so what you are looking at is a triangular pattern of MINIMUM cue ball movement with three balls to get you to the break ball. If you train yourself to look for this 3 ball pattern early in a rack, and possess the cue ball control to work through the rack and land on that pattern consistently- you become a hundred ball runner!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
wigglybridge
14.1 straight pool!
wigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond repute
 
wigglybridge's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 597
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Mass, USA
   
10-06-2019, 06:14 PM

uh, K2 and Mike, you should be aware that Phil Capelle has done just this. look for "Break Shot Patterns" online. book and companion DVD. one of the best and certainly cheapest investments you can make in a book for 14.1.


OB-122 w/ OB Classic shaft

www.bobmills.org
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
K2Kraze
AzB Gold Member
K2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond repute
 
K2Kraze's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,488
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Fort Worth, TX
   
10-06-2019, 06:52 PM

Hey there, wiggly- yes sir, I am familiar. Have the book. And reference it often.

My point is SEEING it done. Repeatedly. Rack 1 to rack 30. Etc. It is not the same as reading about it or diagraming it or discussing over a grande caramel macchiato.

  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
wigglybridge
14.1 straight pool!
wigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond reputewigglybridge has a reputation beyond repute
 
wigglybridge's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 597
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western Mass, USA
   
10-07-2019, 09:31 AM

no, if you actually had the book i'm talking about, then you'd know that you DO see it being done on the dvd.

for ~ 2 hours. nothing else but the last 4 balls.

dozens of different players, a hundred patterns.

it's the best resource in pool by a very wide margin.


OB-122 w/ OB Classic shaft

www.bobmills.org
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
K2Kraze
AzB Gold Member
K2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond reputeK2Kraze has a reputation beyond repute
 
K2Kraze's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,488
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 15 / 100%
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Fort Worth, TX
   
10-07-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by wigglybridge View Post
no, if you actually had the book i'm talking about, then you'd know that you DO see it being done on the dvd.

for ~ 2 hours. nothing else but the last 4 balls.

dozens of different players, a hundred patterns.

it's the best resource in pool by a very wide margin.



Fair enough, wiggly - after all, I DID ask for your thoughts.

I just wasn’t prepared for your snarky retort.

Like I said, wiggles - I have the book. And the DVD. Not the same as the scenario I posted up - but to your point, yes, it is a great resource. Just not “the best” IMHO.

So I’ll put one together.

Thanks, wiggler.

~ K.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.